? on Primordial 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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One thing of note is that the “Whip” is also an old pugilistic term (possibly since Song dynasty) of clenched fist strike that could be pigua, round house, straight, back fist, etc. Bascially, the hands whip out following the motion of the waist.

Reply]
I have a form based on these pics. Someone here steered me to the chart a few years ago, and I actually worked it out. It does have a good number of strikes that “Whip” out following the waist. Assuming I managed to properly work it out with such a very basic sketch that is.

I have some footage of Tai Tzu sets from various lineages i’ve collected over the years, I had to search through them for similar connections of movement for reference. Without that, i don’t think I’d be close.

22

gfx can you put these images up as just simply as jpg’s. I would like to see these. (by the way jpgs are compressed files why compress them further.)

r.

It’s not a video clip, it’s just a bunch of jpg images of a book.

23

Royal Dragon:

Hm…no, you seem to have your history mixed up.

While Tai Zu is said to be created by Northern Song dynasty (960 BC - 1125 BC) founder ZhaoGuangYi, the 32 postures by QiJiGuang near the end of Ming dynasty ( 1368 BC - 1644 BC ).

The methods were found within the military training manual “Ji Xiao Xin Shu”. While TaiZu 32 postures was mentioned in the introduction of the methods, so was 12 other styles. Hence I doubt there was much connection between the two other than names. Maybe QiJiGuang was indeed influenced by Taizu, but there is no way of knowing that now.

The purpose behind QiJiGuang’s creation of the methods was to break out of the overly flowery and unusable martial art styles at the time, and to organize something that was effective and fast to learn in order to train soldiers to more effective counter the Japanese pirates that were raiding the Chinese coast.

I am interested though in how Taizu 32 postures are organized, is it possible that you can point me to some resources? Thanks.

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It’s just to put them all in one file.

25

so how do I get to see them - without buying more software? or being a “windows user”. All thats up on the site is code.
r.

26

just go download winrar, it’s shareware.

I think i provided the link earlier.

27

so how does a mac user use this ???

I did download it. Here is a sample of the instructions :-)))))

r.

User's Manual
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                 RAR 3.50 32-bit console version
                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 RAR for Unix reads configuration information from the file .rarrc
 in the user's home directory (stored in HOME environment variable)
 or in /etc directory.

 RAR for Windows reads configuration information from the file rar.ini,
 placed in the same directory as the rar.exe file.
28

how about something a bit more standard like pdf
r.

29

I am continually researching Tai Tzu, but most is word of mouth from various lineages. I don’t really have any sources to point you too, just a bunch of personal notes that often conflict with one another.

What I have been lead to belive is Sung Tai Tzu created a 32 posture set that encompeses his personal style. This is ultimately what I’m looking for.

General Qi Jiguang’s 32 postures was predominatly tai tzu (Suposedy). Many consider his work to be one step in Tai Tzu Chang Chuan’s evolution.

I’m actually trying to sort all the history out, any insite you can offer would be most appreciated.

30

Hi gfx

No problem. I can understand we came from different perspectives.

The bravery theme here is of uptmost importance to martial art practice. You are not trying to look and feel brave, but to actually be brave. It should be effortless, and Lan Zha Yi would just be so natural to do because you have no innate fear of your opponent. This idea so so important that, QiJiGuang spent half of the time in the opening statement talking about it.

Okay, I don’t think QJG actually explained any of the move except sonnets like phrases in his “Ji Xiao Xin Shu”. Even in the introduction/prologue of the Quanjing, it is about being fast and strike without blocking. The text quoted the first sonnet and then the rest is the author’s own interpretation. I have nothing against interpretations of texts but he should have the courtesy of making it clear or established the link between his style and Qi’s work. This makes the research more difficult than it should. Of course for entertainment or quick inspiration, it might just work fine. It is amusing enough for sure. I have nothing against your translation either. I am just saying that this text is not well thought out that’s all.

Take mantis for example, it requires courage from the partitioner to advance and close the gap to the opponent while under attack. As well as evasion and tricking the opponent. Doing something like that requires confidence and courage.

Well, IME most of the style (martial sports or martial arts) that emphasis physical contact at all times during practice don’t even bother to talk about courage and such. Sure once in awhile it might come into conversation. But usually they don’t fuss about it. Now, I have talked to some mainland practitioner (traditional). The expressive and courageous feeling is always top on the list. Admittedly, they also say that San Da is more or less secondary nowadays. This doesn’t goes to say that they don’t know how to do it and be good with it. Just that way things are. I guess I am jaded.

In addition, how do you explain the name “Lan Zha Yi”? Lan can be translated as either lazily or slowly, both of which doesn’t explain your idea of fast opening. This posture is not a fighting applicable move, period. The real technique starts with “Xun Bu Dan Bian”.

My explanation is in my last post. I interpreted Lan more or less as not to bother or caring. But that is just my opinion.

I find it interesting that your interpretation of Xun Bu Dan Bian is basically based on mantis, while the author’s interpretation is based on his style, and mine is based on something I find useful. That’s the beauty of the 32 fist manual imo.

You might be right but be that as it may, I think the introduction in the Quanjing has said it all. It is really about being speedy not being slow in anyway.

Anyways, it’s important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning. The most important quality of solider were not technical proficiency but rather bravery.

You do have a point here.

Warm regards

Mantis108

31

just in case anyone else had problems figuring out how what to do with

http://individual.utoronto.ca/gfx/m...illingfists.rar

First of all you don’t need to down load winrar to decompress the file.

Simply save the page on your desktop. Stuffit will decompress it as well.

r.

32

Trasnlation for page 2

Translation:

Second technique JingJiDuLi ( Golden rooster standing with one leg )

First manual says: “JingJiDuLi springs up, kick out (Zhuang Tui) horizontal fist in series.
*Qiang Bei Wo Niu ( Resting Ox ) double fall. Whoever received the blows will cry in agony.”
*( Qiang Bei, which literally means to move forward and close distance with the body, and strike with the back )

JingJiDuLi is a technique containing both attack and defense. It can defend against attacking by the lower body, and can also counter-attack using the legs, plus closing the distance to strike and throw.

I. Application example:

  1. Hooking springing leg.

  1. When the opponent attempts to enter my center. ( That is the opponent attempts to enter from my front side, or his front leg has been blocked towards the outside ) I can follow by hooking his leg with my front foot, making him fall. ( pic 1-3 )

  2. Without stopping, when I hook his leg, if the opponent loses his balance, I should kick out his back leg’s knee joint with my hooking foot. ( pic 1 - 4 ).

  1. Trapping leg horizontal fist.

Without stopping, I drop my leg to advance and trap the enemy’s legs. With great speed horizontally sweep the opponent’s chest. ( pic 1-5 )

  1. Resting Ox double fall ( This technique shares its name with the Wo Niu Shuang Dao technique in SongXi Neijia ).

When I cross sweep the opponent using my fist, if he strongly resists, then I can trap his left forearm with my right hand, and at the same time strike ( more like touching ) his left ribs with my right elbow. Shift the body weight forward fast, and strike his face with the left palm. ( pic 1-6 )

Important points: The moves above are one single continuous combo, when used should be tightly coupled, fast and smooth.

II. The above are explained from the attacking point of view. If to view it from the point of view of defense, we can also explain as follow:

  1. Guard against low kicks

If the opponent using low kicks to attack my lower abdomen or crotch, I can raise back the front leg, seal the attacking leg. Using the raised leg to counter attack, then advance forward and use the combined striking and throw.

  1. Guard against sweeping kicks.

If the opponent attempts to sweet my leg, I can raise my front leg to avoid the sweep, and counter with the leg, and use the striking and throwing combo.

Translator’s note:

The name “Zhuang Tui” is translated as both “kicking out” and “trapping leg”. The author’s understanding of Zhuang Tui is to trap the opponent’s legs by advancing. Another understanding of it is a front kick.

“Heng Quan” or horizontal fist can also be understood as a cross.

So in a purely striking sense, another usage of the move is to: Block kick by raising the knee, kick out and then strike the opponent with jab and/or cross,
follow by a hook that may or may out involve the trapping and throwing aspect.

33

AHH!!! This one refers to the second move in the form!! I just pictured a whole new way to use that one too!! THANKS!!

34

sounds quite generic to me but hard to visualise without the pics

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The pics are posted in a link further up in the thread.

36

gfx,

Where did you go?

37

http://johnswang.com/Tai_Tzu_Chang_Chuan.wmv

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Wow!! I have video of that performance from a different angle! At least I think it’s the same compitition. I also have the taller white guy who performed just before him.

39

yeah sorry, I’m quite busy with work these days.
I’ll come back to this when I have more time.

40

GFX,
Any comment on the video posted?