That’s Johns Wang performing isn’t it?
That’s just standard northern shaolin long fist.
Good power though, nice stable and clean movements. I like it. 
I’ve never seen what’s considered to be classical taizu changquan, so I don’t think I’m in any position to judge it.
Actually, I have that set from 2 different Tai Tzu lineages. North Tai Tzu is very much like Cha Fist or Northern Hong Chuan. Like a mix of the two.
Bump
…
What exact names for you have for that form?
I have seen it called a Hong Quan form too.
Problem with General Qi’s form is that there is confusion over exactly
what he meant.
If his 32 move form was an amalgamation of moves from his list of the best styles
(and hence never meant to be an actual form)
OR
If his form is actually a Tai Tzu form.
Which it is considered so because of a book that was found.
From Peter Lim’s Research:
art 2: The Martial Arts Practiced In The Chen Villiage
The Sung Tai Zhu Quan Connection
Tang Hao was the first to theorise that Chen Wang Ting invented Taijiquan by integrating 29 of the 32 postures of General Qi Ji Kwang. In chapter 3 we have already ascertained that Gu was wrong about the origins of Taijiquan, here we will see how the 32 postures of General Qi fits into the picture as a basis for the development of Chen Taijiquan.
General Qi was a general during the Ming dynasty who compiled a book on effective war techniques called the “New Book Recording Effective Techniques” (Ji Xiao Xin Shu). In it he had sections of strategy, weapons usage, unarmed combat and other aspects of war. In the section on unarmed combat he recorded the names of 16 extant empty hand martial arts and took note of what made effective boxing. He also recorded 32 boxing postures. Gu was the first to assume that these 32 postures were an amalgam of the most effective techniques of the 16 listed fistic forms. For many decades, this was the accepted truth because of his reputation as a Taijiquan historian. Unfortunately he was wrong.
Based on the above assumption, Gu had posited that Chen Wang Ting had developed his Taijiquan from General Qi’s form which supposedly consisted of the best techniques from the 16 extent fistic arts during the Ming dynasty. An impressive pedigree. With a closer examination of the postures and their listing we discover something else.
In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon’ (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung’s Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi’s book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned.
A parallel comparison of the drawings and names of the 32 postures shows that they are in fact identical. A posture listing of both sets are as follows:
The 32 Postures 1n General Qi’s Book
Lazily Arranging Clothes
Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg
Pat Horse
Bending Single Whip
Seven Star Fist
Repulse Riding Dragon
Sweep Leg And Empty Bait
Hill Fairy Stance (qiu liu shi)
Repulse Thrusting Attack
Ambush Stance
Casting Away Stance
Pick Up Elbow Stance
Speedy Step
Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)
Middle Four Level Stance
Subduing Tiger Stance
High Four Level Stance
Repulse Insertion Stance
Well Blocking Four Levels
Ghost Kick Foot
Pointing At Pubic Region
Animal Head Stance
Spirit Fist
Single Whip
Sparrow Dragon On The Ground
Rising Sun Stance
Goose Wings Fold Body
Riding Tiger Stance
Bend Pheonix Elbow
Cannon Overhead
Follow Pheonix Eblow
Flag And Drum Stance
Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan’s 32 Postures
Lazily Arranging Stance
Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg
Control Horse Stance
Bending Whip
Seven Star Fist
Repulse Riding Dragon Stance
Sweeping Foot And Lightly Empty
Hill Flowing Stance (qiu liu shi)
Repulse Thrusting Stance
Ambush Stance
Pulling Frame Stance
Bracing Eblow Upwards Stance
Escaping Step
Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)
Middle Four Level Stance
Subduing Tiger Stance
High Four Level Stance
Repulse Catching Stance
Well Blocking Stance
Ghost Kicking Stance
Pointing To Pubic Region
Animal Head Stance
Spirit Fist
Single Whip
Sparrow Dragon Stance
Rising Sun Stance
Wild Goose Wing Stance
Riding Tiger Stance
Bend Pheonix Stand
Over Head Stance
Follow Pheonix Stance
Flag And Drum Stance
What does this mean to Taijiquan? Chen Zhi Ming was the member of the Chen family who accompanied Tang Hao to the Chen village. He, like Gu and Tang also wrote about his family’s Taijiquan. Chen Zhi Ming work contains records the following about Sung Tai Zhu Quan:
`Tai Zhu stances are the strongest, tumbling and diagonal moving, even ghosts have to be busy to get out of the way’ from the Liang Yi Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts.
`Seven star fist and hands take care of each other, Pat Horse Fist comes down from Tai Zhu’ from the Wen Xiu Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts
From the above, which are the earliest sources of information about Chen family martial arts, it is clear that it was Sung Tai Zhu Quan that formed the basis of Taijiquan with 29 of its 32 postures adopted into the form, and did not come from General Qi’s work which has no mention in Chen literature. This inaccurate hypothesis having been originated by Tang Hao.
Sung Tai Zhu Quan or Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan as it was also known, comes from the south of China and is a external hard boxing form. It is characterised by powerful strikes and movements, body shaking, being structurally aligned, postures flowing with coordinated footwork, being very firm and stable both in standing and stepping and is effective in grappling (chin-na). All of which are present in Chen Taijiquan today. Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan was not the only art practiced and ultimately integrated into their unique family boxing routines, from Chen Zhi Ming’s record of the Chen arts song formulas, we know that Shaolin Red Fist was also practiced.
Problem with this theory:
“In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon’ (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung’s Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi’s book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned.”
is that what if this 1918 book’s tai tzu form was nothing but a copy of General Qi’s form?
There is no way to know yes or no.
The Shaolin 32 Move Tai Tzu Long Fist form that is practiced all around the temple region has many of the same moves but also different ones and it is a much more coherent form, with clear movements and clear applications. many of the moves in this form are also found in Hong Quan forms from Henan and Shanxi regions as well.
For sure the moves in the Shaolin 32 form are found in Chen and Yang tai chi forms. I can point out every move, even whole sequences to sections in the Chen tai ji forms. Even in the Yang long form (but done with different jings).
The General Qi 32 tai tzu form is extremely weird, if you are intimate with doing forms and their self defense applications.
I need a video of:
Adam Hsu’s Tai Tzu form
any person doing Tai Tzu from Mai Hua style.
anyone got any videos I can see?
thanks
My copy of Adam Hsu’s form is pretty bad. It was shot at night in a parking lot. You can see the set well enough though. I can copy it over thanks giving, and see if I can get the copy in the mail next week sometime.
The General Qi 32 tai tzu form is extremely weird, if you are intimate with doing forms and their self defense applications.
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I found this as well. It actually leads me to believe that that set is not a form, but a compilation of the original 32 techniques. If one looks at it as not being a form at all, and assumes that is the oldest Tai tzu material, then it might stand to reason that Tai Tzu did not originally have a form. Maybe originally it was just 32 techniques. The useage of said techniques was taught along with entry and evasion strategies, the foot work used for positioning, and methods to apply them to intercept and disrutp your opponent’s balance etc…
Each technique could be combined with any other in any sequence based on the conditions of the fight at the moment. Maybe that is how it was originally taught. Various combo’s of 2-3 or maybe 4 techniques were strung togther as needed at the moment and just as soon forgotten.
Maybe the form as we see it now is just some modern misunderstanding of the original formless essence?
The joke of it all is that all the people in China doing all the squawking about these styles don’t even know how to do any of the martial arts forms that they are talking about!
Nothing has been proven about General Qi’s form. Nothing in any Chen village document even mentions Qi’s book.
Just because the names of the moves are the same in Chen as they are in this list of moves from Qi’s book doesn’t prove anything, because the Shaolin Tai Tzu Long Fist form looks and feels the most like Chen Tai Ji (or whatever you can call the Chen style, many say Yang is the point that it becomes actually Tai Ji). The opening of the Shaolin TZ form is the same as the Chen form, whole sequences of moves from the Shaolin TZ form are in the exact same order as in various sections of the Chen form. And they are done almost the same way, just the jings are a little different.
The moves in the form shown in Qi’s book are NOT done in that order anywhere in the Chen form.
Oh, and even the Shaolin 32 long fist form FEELS like loose techniques strung together rather than like their other forms. As most styles from Sung and before actually were like. Forms didn’t really become prominent til after 1200s.
(By the way, the Shaolin 32 TZ LF form is composed of 57 actual different moves, all contained within 32 named techniques.)
Is it the full 108 moves set?
I count about 70 or so “moves”, but techniques are often several moves long. Adam Hsu may have the full set, but I’m not sure I do. although I did eventually track down the source of the video, and he claimed it was the full set.