Polian quan = Shaolin Taizu changquan?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

Has anybody ever heard of a style called Polian quan (literally Breaking Lotus Boxing)? I was puzzled that Taizu changquan was not one of the forms listed in the Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu (Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts), then I saw this:

“According to tradition the Polian Boxing of Shaolin Temple originated at the beginning of the Song Dynasty; it was transmitted to Shaolin Temple by Song Taizu, and is also called Taizu changquan. Later, the monk Fuju revised it to contain 35 postures, and named it Shaolin Polian quan… This style of boxing contains moves from the six styles of Piercing Foot (Chuojiao), Splitting/Hanging (Pigua), Six Harmonies, Five Harmonies, Arhat (Luohan) and Vajra (Jingang) Boxing, therefore it is called Polian quan, it is also called Six Gates Fist Magic Stance (Liumen quan huashen ba).”

2

Interesting, I have never heard this. Is it possible this is another set derived from tai tzu, but not the actual Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

Can you scan the first 3-4 moves of the book, and post them? I know the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set. I can tell you if it’s at least the same openeing moves.

3

I don’t have a scanner, but i can give you the names of the moves if that helps:

Opening Posture

  1. Stealing the Peach from Under the Leaves
  2. Green Dragon Stretches its Claws
  3. Both Hands Grasp the Moon
  4. Laojun Seals the Door
  5. Turning the Body, Moving the Stone
  6. Golden Rooster Stands One One Leg
  7. Fairy Scatters Flowers
  8. Ape Sits on the Mountain
  9. Crouching to the Earth, Nimble Dragon
  10. Great Roc Extends a Kick
  11. Carrying Firewood on the Shoulder
  12. Ape Withdraws its Body
  13. Opening the Pass, Receiving the Enemy
  14. Treading Tiger Climbs the Mountain
  15. Fox Stretches its Claws
  16. Black Dragon Grips the Pillar
  17. Han Xin Waves his Banner
  18. Immortal Sits in a Cave
  19. Crouching to the Earth, Swimming Dragon
  20. Lion Opens its Mouth
  21. White Crane Gazes at the Immortal
  22. Black Dragon Grips the Pillar
  23. Erlang Carries the Mountain
  24. Immortal Sits in a Cave
  25. Swift Cat Plays with the Mouse
  26. Golden Snake Enters the Grove
  27. White Crane Spreads its Wings
  28. Arhat Carries Firewood
  29. Fierce Tiger Turns its Body
  30. White Cranes Gather in the Sky
  31. White Snake Leaves the Cave
  32. Stepping Up, Closing the Storehouse
  33. Arhat Blocks the Gate
  34. Standing on the Mountain, Viewing the Scenery
    Closing Posture

after a while these names start to all sound the same… :slight_smile:

4

Hmmm, I never learned the correct names, only the set. I can cross reference it with the Tagou book, maybe that will shed some light.

  1. ready posture
    2 Starting movement
    3 cutting A plam in a T- Stance
    4 Rebounding a palm in a forward lunge
    5 Hammering a fist in a T-satnce
    6 right enpi in a forward lunge
    7 both elbows enpi back in horse stance
  2. both claws grasping lower back
    9 rushing both fists up in horese stance
    10 strikingbth hands wile stamping foot
    11 Striking upper in forward lunge
    12 Clapping foot wile jumping up
    13 strike ears with both fists
    14 Reining in at the brink of precipice
    15 Keeping arms in a line with forwrd lunge
    16 Cutting plam in forward lunge
    17 Taiji palms (Looks like wave hands like clouds)
    18 cutting palm in tiptoe stance (Empty stance)

The above are the first 18, but in moder description, not teh clasic poetry. If that helps, I’ll post the rest for you when I have a bit more time tomorrow. It’s bedieby time for me now.

5

I wonder if it could be considered a Taizu set becuase it was developed from a Taizu base, sort of like Qi Jiguang Fa?

I would love to see the translation of this set, and the accompaning diagrams. If it considered a Taizu set, bet I have it documented wholly or partially somewhere.

This would be a good one for Shaolin Master, or my freind in Australia.

6

19 Pressing both palms in a forward lunge
20 Standing with one leg like a cokk
21 Resting head on a pillow
22 reining in at the brink of precipice
23 Keeping arms in a line with a forward lunge
24 Celestial boy presenting peach
25 rushing fist 3 times wile lifting knee
26 Showing a palm in Tiptoe stance
27 rushing a fist in forward lunge
28 claping the foot wile jumping up
29 rushing a fist lower forweard wile stamping a foot.
30 rebounding a plam in a forward lunge
31 Enpi an elbow in lower wing stance
32 Rushing an arm upward in a front-touching stance
33 Hammerng an elbow in T-stance
34 Hideing a fist behind a palm
35 Forming Plough arms in T-stance
36 celestail boy presenting peach
37 Chopping a pam in tiptoe stance
38 pressing both palms in a forward lunge
39 left Washi- Geri
40 pressing both palms in a forward lunge
41 reining in at the brink of precipice
42 Close, Finninsh

7

1.)

If Polianquan is a Taizu set then many main stream songshan shaolin sets would be Taizu sets.

No it is a Shaolin Set.

2.)

Sometimes the histories of sets are dubious. Often the origins unclear and hearsay is written down.

3.)

Many of the sets in Deqian’s encyclopedia are either incorrect, modern and the most prevailant one being that the quan pu were recalled but the associated techniques or content not known and thus often based on the basics of surviving or lay disciples who often learnt something else. In this way what had varying flavour often becomes similar even though it may not have been so.

4.) It would likely be that the influence of the other 6 styles should be more significant. Also, Fu Ju revised to 35 postures it is such a small set with quite a few standard motions.

5.) Lastly, I’d advice learning the material from the source as the enyclopedia is a reference for those who know the contents very difficult to use it as good tool.

8

[i]1.)

If Polianquan is a Taizu set then many main stream songshan shaolin sets would be Taizu sets.

No it is a Shaolin Set.[/i]

Reply]
Hmm Ok, but this brings a question, what exactly IS a Tai Tzu set, and why is it considered so? It all came from the original 32 move form, right? So technically, anything above and beyond the original 32 were added on later, and not true Tai Tzu. Or is there an essence that I am mising, like a bio mechanical or expression sort of a thing?

[i]2.)

Sometimes the histories of sets are dubious. Often the origins unclear and hearsay is written down. [/i]

Reply]
Hmmm, Yes, and that is becomming more and more wide spread in modern times it appears.

[i]3.)

Many of the sets in Deqian’s encyclopedia are either incorrect, modern and the most prevailant one being that the quan pu were recalled but the associated techniques or content not known and thus often based on the basics of surviving or lay disciples who often learnt something else.[/i]

Reply]
By Quan Pu, do you mean the poetic descriptions of the techniques?

In this way what had varying flavour often becomes similar even though it may not have been so.

Reply]
I have heard that many of the “Ancient” Shaolin sets today have been lost, and new sets have been created useing the ancient names. IF this is true, then the whole thing is hopelessly confusing to outsiders, and proably many insiders as well.

4.) It would likely be that the influence of the other 6 styles should be more significant. Also, Fu Ju revised to 35 postures it is such a small set with quite a few standard motions.

Reply]
Standard to Shaolin in general? As in movements commonly fond through out many Shaolin forms across the board?

5.) Lastly, I’d advice learning the material from the source as the enyclopedia is a reference for those who know the contents very difficult to use it as good tool.

Reply]
Yes, BUT if someone translates it to english, I’m buying it for my library anyway. Tai Tzu manuals, I’d even buy them written in Chinese, whether or not I understand it, just to have them in my collection. Especially one for the Northern branch. Many people enjoy researching the arts as much as practicing them.

9

Shaolin Master – thanks for that post. I agree that the encyclopedia would not be a great place to learn from; I wasn’t aware of this historical background but that was my gut feeling on reading through it for the first time. I doubt that, despite the inclusion of pictures, it was intended for this purpose by the authors; rather, it represents a desire to set what is now known down in writing for the reference of future generations (like us!). I enjoy reading through it because it provides great information that could not be found elsewhere (AFAIK the Shaolin Quanpu, which is referenced throughout for the history and songs of these styles is not readily available), but I take everything in there with a grain of salt.

RD – from these descriptions, it does not sound like the same form. I have seen the Tagou book but I don’t have a copy here that I could use to compare, sorry. as for translating the whole encyclopedia into english… whew! it’s a hefty 4 volumes, with upwards of 3000 pages. it would be an immense project, to say the least… as for the illustrations of this form, i just remembered that there is a website called cyberkwoon.com that i used to frequent which has a lot of scans from the Shaolin encyclopedia available to its “premium members” (meaning you have to pay for them). I bet if you emailed ffab, the webmaster (he used to post on these forums), he might scan this form in for you if it’s not already in their database.

10

If you are a premium member, look at the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form, and tell me if it is the same.

Heck, forget that, go here and compare it http://members.tripod.com/~martial_art/32menu.htm

This is the General Qi Jigunag’s Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form.

The one in the Tagou book is the Shaolin 32 move Tai tzu. Suposedly, it’s about as close to the original as we have in modern times.

11

I can compare all the forms at one time, I have all of them in front of me.

It is my understanding the Po Lian means “Destroy”.

In comparing all the forms shown,

the Po Lian form does not match the Shaolin 32 Move Long Fist form (which I know very well, enough to teach it) and
it doesn’t match the 32 move form in General Qi’s book from 1544 ad.

A few postures match, but that’s about all.
No matching sequences, nothing.

This must be a Tai tzu derived form, but it has so many moves from all different Shaolin forms that it changes the tai tzu aspect a lot.

12

Sal, are you in the US? If so, when I am ready to travle in the next few years, would you be willing to teach me your Shaolin Tai Tzu form? I have a version of it, but the individual was not allowed to teach it, so I’m not sure how much I have is correct, or marked.

13

Hi;

No problem, when you are ready let me know, we’ll make an appointment.

I’ll do a seminar on that form, showing it’s relationship to Chen and Yang tai chi,
it’s roots in Shaolin 18 Lohan forms and other pre-sung dynasty styles, and of course will teach the whole 31 move forms with the proper soft and hard aspects that this form should have (Modern Shaolin “monks” do it all hard and lost many of the subtle aspects of it).

14

Everyone rips off Deqian

Shaolin encyclopedia available to its “premium members” (meaning you have to pay for them)
Somehow, I doubt Deqian sees any of that. Another one of his books was ripped off too. That’s just shameful, but maybe because I’ve had my stuff ripped off too, and it sucks. Writers don’t make a lot of money, so it’s stealing from the poor. And regardless of the criticisms some have levelled against Deqian’s scholarship, his work is significant in the MA circles because there’s simply nothing else quite like it. Besides, only a few MAists can really level any scholarly criticism, since so few are really scholars.

Great thread, guys. I’ve heard of polian but never gave it much of a thought until now…

15

Well, you certainly know that my articles written for your magazines have been ripped off many times by many websites without crediting me, so I concur.

16

Oh I hear ya, Sal, I hear ya!

Every once in a while I’ll do a search to chase web reprints down and bust them with the old ‘stop and desist’. Some one like Deqian doesn’t really have that ability, being in Dengfeng and all. It’s worse if they’re actually charging for it. It’s dishonorable to plaguerize and not credit. It’s outright theft to charge.

The funny thing is that for our magazine, we are very open to having our articles republished on the web as long as they credit us properly and go through our approval process. Obviously, we want the hyperlinks because it adds to the traffic. Also for legal reasons, we want the (C) listed prominently, but how hard is that? It’s that whole taking without asking that so bothersome, especially from MAists claiming to have some sense of righteousness. OK, end tirade. Back to Polian…

17

The Tai Tzu long fist form’s quan bu is in the previous chapter, where forms that they have no drawings of are listed.
THE VERY BEST forms are there, alas!!! Only words and no pics to scope!

18

Found it:

Volume 1 of the Shaolin encyclopedia on page 651 shows the quan bu
of the Shaolin Long Fist (tai tzu form), words only, no pictures.

Also, on that page is ROAD 2 of the form, VERY RARE indeed. 50 something moves.
AND on the next page (652) is ROAD 3.

What a great service it would do (esp to Chen tai ji research) if the images to the
form could one day be seen.

Anyone really good at reading Chinese that has these books able to post what it
says for these three forms? (in pinyin and, if possible english)
It would be a good deed for the world of CMA research!!!

19

Question for Sal,
How many roads of Shaolin Tai Tzu do you know?

20

one same as anyone else.

Some people from the area around Shaolin might know the other ones,
but they haven’t gone public.

The only reason Shaolin has the first form again is that a local family taught
it back to them.

Maybe this family knows the rest?
*It would be amazing to see it one day.

It might put to rest a lot of tai ji controversy.