I have been collecting Tai Tzu forms for sometime now. I have found several of them “Connect” with little to no effort. For example, the last move of the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang chuan flows right into the first move of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that John wang performs on the video found on his site.
also, plumb Flower sells some VCD’s of Shaolin tai tzu that are said to be the first sections of a much longer form. the last moves of John Wang’s set flows directly into the first of the plumb flower sets. I actually end the practice of his set by doing the first few moves of the set from the plumb flower set (an idea passed to me by someone, thankyou if you are reading this, e-mial me sometime I would like to restablish contact if possible).
Clearly you have to remove the opening and closeing bows, but it’s fairly seemless otherwise.
The Shaolin version is a Hunan lineage, I believe John Wangs is a Taiwan, and the Plumb Flower is a Shanghi lineage. The fact that these sets are from different unconnected lines, but fit together back, to back to back like this leads me to belive that Tai Tzu was infact one huge long form at one time and is now broken up.
Cool, but be careful of making correlations between items without checking if there are really any causal connections.
The beginning and endings of most forms tell more about what school or system the form is from than anything else.
The Tai tzu form that John Wang did is from the Mei Hua Long Fist / Mantis school, I thought.
The opening segment is basically the same as their Xiao Fu Yen mantis form.
I’m pretty sure that this form is the Tai Tzu form that this N Mantis style teaches first. Which is from Shantung province.
To see how one style begat another you have to trace who taught who when and where.
I have seen a Hong Quan form by the Fan family, who were orginally from Shanxi province and later moved to Taiwan.
Other than the different mantis opening, it contains almost all the same moves as the form by John Wang.
There are many folk / village style Hong Quan and Tai Tzu forms all over Shandung and Shanxi province due to the popularity of doing a form attributed to an Emperor and that soldiers from the Sung dynasty taught it to people here and there after 960 AD. They are all different Long fist type forms, which must be due to tai tzu quan originally being a long collection of loose techniques, like most style from Sung dynasty and before.
What makes a form known as being derived from Tai Tzu Quan is that it has a combination of moves that are seen in old Lohan forms, Cha Quan, and also Tai Ji like moves.
Also, forms contain in them signature moves that tell you who the form came from. Like a tag that graphitti artists use. The singature move that tells you it is indeed a tai tzu derived form is seen in Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and in Shaolin 32 TZ Long Fist forms. It is the second move in Shaolin TZLF, which externally is the face slap and internally like peng in Chen TJQ and also seen in the beginning of Grasp Sparrow’s Tail in Yang TJQ.
Also, Shaolin Lohan erived forms move to the left side first exclusively (Da Mo’s heir at Shaolin had no right arm). Except their TZLF form, which moves to the right first, like the Chen and Yang TJQ styles do. It (and the Gen Qi form, can end with your back to the audience, like old frame Chen form does).
Shanxi has a large Hong Quan style with many forms, Hong meaning “red” fist. It doesn’t look too much like Shaolin TZQ.
In Henan, the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan form is derived from Tai tzu quan, and it is much older than the most of their forms there now.
The Shaolin Da Hong Quan (3 roads) form that is taught publicly and seen in all the books and videos is NOT the same style of the Xiao Hong Quan form. Instead the Hong character means “flood”. This form is attributed to the Yuan Dynasty and entered Shaolin from Li Shou (of Bai Yu Feng and Monk Jue Yuan fame).
Shaolin also has a rarely seen LONG Da Hong Quan that is very much like the moves seen in Xiao HOng Quan form.
I have seen a Hong Quan form by the Fan family, who were orginally from Shanxi province and later moved to Taiwan.
Other than the different mantis opening, it contains almost all the same moves as the form by John Wang.
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Interesting. I have shown this set, and another that is supposedly a mantis set I found on emptyflower a few years ago to a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan player I know in Australia. I didn’t tell him what they were but he identified both as Tai Tzu Hong Chuan sets by thier make up. This is especially so for the mantis one, but the Tai Tzu one as well.
Cool, but be careful of making correlations between items without checking if there are really any causal connections.
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How could we tell? Tai Tzu is so old, how much of it has been taught, in part, every where from retired soldiers who learned it while they served in both the Sung, and Ming dyansties?
I have only heard rummurs of schools that have the entire 18 section long from, but most at best have 10 seperate sets, and useually those are Tai Tzu Hong Chaun.
TAI TSU QUAN
English narration. Documentary/ Semi-instructional. Re-enactment of the origins of this rare
style of the Ming dynasty. Southern / Northern comparisons, various forms of both, 2 man
conditioning, 2 man sticky body, 3 battles, 4 corners, 3 gate form, more northern and southern
forms shown. A very good style with effective techniques. #88612. $59.98. Buy 1 Get 1 Free!
The first half of the tape is pretty much tai tzu hong quan and the second half is southern style.
There’s one form on the first half that is very much like N Mantis.
(by the way, there is a Tong bei thread on this site that talks about Tai tzu soldier’s knowing Tong Bei Quan and that tai tzu quan has its origins in Tong Bei Quan.)
I’m thinking that Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is internal, and the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is external.
As for that tape, at one point I had worked out and practiced every form on there.
Over all, I have collected enough to make a whole Tai Tzu system, but it’s not from a single lineage. My Tai Tzu is like a mad sampler of Tai Tzu from all over. I actually have some sets form a southern branch of the Northern style. That stuff looks most like the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan of the north, only it’s seems more aggresive in expression.
well that’s commendable that you are preserving the sets like that into one place.
That’s truly great think for history preservation.
Hmm, can any pre-Ching Dynasty CMA really be only internal or external?
I’m sure that the forms would have both.
Knowing history of forms, in my opinion, the TZ Hong forms are a designation for forms that came from his soldier followers and
the TZ Chang Quan forms are direct from his original line.
The TZ hong quan forms seem to be seen all over the place as folk forms.
I’m not sure how much preservation I can do, I really don’t think I have full un altered sets just becasue of the way I learned them.
I think you are right, the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan came from his royal guard, and the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is the imperial family line.
I think the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is more rare, but it is als a folk style today.
I also think the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is the older of the two, and one of the base arts the Emperor drew on when creating his personal style. I also suspect that the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan was the Hong Chuan that influanced the Chen style of Taiji, but that is just a personal hunch with no basis in credible research.
Lots of people say that Tong Bei was the art that the soldiers already practiced when Tai Tzu became a soldier. So, he had to learn it to be a soldier.
Also, he learned Lohan from Shaolin, which clearly has some “mother” moves seen in the various Tai Tzu Quans.
Chen village martial arts was mostly based on Pao Chui from Henan Province (shaolin influence) but the founders of the village came from Shanxi province originally, where Hong Quan and Tai Tzi Quan was very popular for a long time already.
AND, the Chen Tai ji “founder” had served in the Military in Shandong province, where Tai Tzu was very popular already as well.
So, you might be very right.
When you see the Chen Tai Ji long fist and Lao Jia forms (and learn them) and also learn the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan (and the real Da Hong Quan form not the one seen more often today) AND the Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan forms, THEN
your clearly see the mother moves that easily are adapted into Chen Tai Ji moves.
I will make a chart when I get the chance in the next few month that lists each move in Chen and Yang long forms and the corresponding moves in the Shaolin Tai Tzu / Hong Quans forms. Whole sequences of moves are duplicated in the same order.
I’m not sure. I do know there ARE Southern branches of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It’s known as Tai Jow Cheun Kune Pai. It’s basically the Northern, but done with a more agressive expression, deeper stances that are a tad bit less mobile, but not much and more agressive hand work.
There is also a Southern Tai Tzu Quan, but it is a seperate style. It was developed by the Sung dynasties ruling family in the LATE Southern Sung dynasty. It was originally for rapid rebuilding of troops after the losses in the North. That branch developed quite a bit more in local villiages and eventualy evolved to become the Five Ancestor’s Fist when it merged with 4 other styles (White Crane being one) This branch later spread to Okinawia and became Okinawian Karate.
The Tai Tzu school also contains 8 sets of Northern Monkey, and 8 sets of Southen Monkey. The line is not the modern Tai Shing Pekwar though, but a branch of Monkey Kung Fu who’s origines go back to roughly 650 AD.
There is also the Six Stance Fist, Cha Fist, Hua Fist and Gun Fist that are all direct descendants of northern Tai Tzu.
I have also heard Nine Way Mandrian Duck is somehow related.
Both Chen Taiji and Northern Preying Mantis can trace thier roots to heavy Tai Tzu influances.
The Imperial Guard that was commanded by the soon to be Emperor, Sung Tai Tzu (took the throne in 960 AD) practiced an art called Hong Jia Quan. I believe this is the same art known as Tai Tzu Hong Chuan today, and most likely is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan’s most imediate predicessor.
Tai Tzu in it’s various forms were spread all over China becasue it was widely taught to the military both in it’s original Sung dynasty, and later in the Ming dynasty. My guess is most of the lines just died out. What didn’t, most likely evolved into many minor family styles. What didn’t die out or evolve into other arts is still with us today. Some lines are intact and complete, and others are parts of Tai Tzu systems preserved as single sets in many other Long fist styles.
I was going to let this go on, but I did not want more confusion.
Simple fact.
In the past often masters which had issues with government or whatever did three obvious things;
Change their name (Constantly wherever they went it would differ)
Not say the art or use a different name altogether or teach different things in different places
and
Call it TAIZUQUAN.
There lies the confusion and in all honesty it has really led many astray.
Now many of the arts quoted have fairly clear origins that do not correlate with the current interpretation of the art.
For example: Tongbeiquan was not formalised until 400 years ago (The legend of course dates longer) and then underwent 200 years of development until it reached its current structure. Know one mentions the actual mother boxing of Tongbeiquan.
Lastly,
The mechanics of the human body allow it to move in a finite amount of ways, the power strategy and execution differs, any correlation on the basis of movement is in vain. It is the 3rd,4th and etc dimensions that give it essence.
Oh, and please do not even associate Chuojiao (or YuanyangJiao - or what you called 9 way something or other) to any of this as it is fairly unique since its inception. Diantui is not found in any other Changquan based art and is a key in our Chuojiao in amongst many other things.
Taizuquan is as common a name as Hongquan…there are historical reasons not based on martial relationship as much as social integration.
In terms of Taizuquan I have outlined the schools to Royal Dragon before. Those were the contents of the officially recognised modalities of Taizuquan as per official government records such as both the Hebei and Shandong Collection of Martial practice from the 80’s investigations. All other fall into the category 3. up above. ( i.e. just a name).
What was and what is are but a passing thought, though we are today as a result of what we were yesterday we would not reach tomorrow unless we let yesterday pass.
With the small incorrectness of the fact that the style Taizuquan of Fujian bears no resemblance nor attribute in line with that of Northern Taizuquan. Completely different systems.
Wuzuquan is on the base of Southern Taizuquan
Goju Ryu is based on Minghequan from Xie Zhongxiang
Uechi Ryu is based on Huzunquan from Zhou Zihe.
Yongchun Quan (Wingchun) is based on Yongchunbaihequan
The broadness of Hakka and Beggar’s does not allow them to have a specific origin as different hakka have completely different origins such as Diujiaquan (Hakka MA) which is from Jiangxi and Beggars/wanderers being a generic non style specific term…of course construed to become a style of late but never so in the past.
Regards
Wu Chanlong
Grand disciple of Venerable Abbott Miao Yue of ZongfuSi in Quanzhou, Fujian Province, PRC.
Our school has 2 tai zu chang quan forms and 1 two man tai zu chang quan form. Our forms come from Grandmaster Yin Chian Ho and Master Cheng Tsang Lu. Our forms are different than John Wangs and the Han Ching Tang lineage. Very unique.
Royal Dragon,
I know that you wanted to get a video of our forms, sorry about how long it has been. I just haven’t had the means and equipment to do it. Also, I think that it would be best to contact my father Master Lu. His website is www.luhealthcenter.com
I have never seen our Tai Zu chang quan forms performed outside of our lineage.
