There is a major movement/posture that seems to be in common, with slight variation (due to chronological and stylistic evolution), between all the following styles (in Chronological order):
Tong Bei Quan: Pi Shan Zhang - Split Mountain Palm
Shaolin Chan Yuan: Li Pi Hua Shan - Forcibily Split Hua Mountain
Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong: Lao Seng Pi Chai - Old Monk Splits Wood
Shaolin Yuan Hou Quan (Ape Monkey Fist): Shrink body Double Acknowledge Fingers - Su Shen Shang Ren Zhi
Shaolin Rou Quan 36: Turn Body Right, Plundering / Intercepting Hand - Zhuan Shen You Lu / Lan Shou
Yue Jia Quan and XY: Splitting Fist - Pi Quan
Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou - Strike Side Face Palm - Pu Mian Zhang
Hua Quan 18 Luohan: Ying Qia Suo - Eagle Seizes Gullet
Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan: Turn Face Right, Pulling Hand - Zhuan Lian You, Ban Shou
Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan: Turn Right, Face To Face Pulling Hand - Ying-Mian Ban
Chen TJQ Yi Lu: Lazy (Block) Tying Coat - Lan Zha Yi
Yang TJQ: Grasp Sparrow’s Tail.
All these sets do this movement near their beginning as they turn to the right.
MOST of these sets follow it up that above movement with a variation of “Single Whip” and most of them call that next move “Single Whip” even if it looks different.
[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;871164]What is Yue Shi Ba Fan shou?[/QUOTE]
Watch these videos of this form (these are videos of the first section of 8 rows, there are 3 sections of 8 rows in total):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8
(this guy does with too fast with no whole body movement, but you can get the idea, if you slow it down and do the movements clearer it is obvious they are all also seen in TZ Chang Quan 32 and especially in the Lao Hong Quan 108.)
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External? Look again, watch his back and spine as he moves. This guy is about as internal as it gets. He has good open and close, one thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops everything stops. His power is derived form the core on every move, even when he just walks or stands there. Short of adding some spiraling and silk reeling type stuff, you just don’t see internal this good too often. I think you are just not seeing it because of the white uniform, but look really close and it is clearly internal motion all the way.
As for the first set I see a number of things commonly found in the Southern Tai jow “Four Corners” form. I found that to be interesting..
I looked at the rest of his clips and he is remarkably disconnected when he does his taiji like stuff. He’s wiggling around his body but with no apparent connection to the move he is doing in many places. He looks much better in the first clip though. Maybe is his being too explosive to add all the none necessary stuff in.
Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.
I’ve been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan’s 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.
I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He’s the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871318]Yue Jia Quan is basically a southern Hakka style, it has an important form called San Men Quan. 3 gates fist.
I’ve been looking at all my resources that have this set, and I am having a hunching from what I see, that THIS style is what Southern Tai Zu is based on!
Yue Jia Quan’s 3 Gates Fist is not much different from 3 Battles Fist.
I bet the Hakka grand ancestor was referring all along to their actual real southern song Grand Ancestor who is a hakka too: Yue Fei ! He’s the grand ancestor in honor, not Zhao Kuan Yin, and it really fits prefectly with the correct time period when the hakka last wave came down into the south.[/QUOTE]
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Do you mean The Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then!
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;871390]Maybe this will give us a glimpse of the 2nd and 3rd roads of the 32?[/QUOTE]
No , not what I am seeing, the rest of the rows follows the same path as ta ji quan yi lu set, which mostly follows tai zu chang 32, but the movements that are not really seen in the TZ set are seen both here in the Ba fan shou sets and the tai ji quan yi lu set.
That I am finding very strange, wonder what it means?
Both are drawing from the same source?
Or the TZ 32 set originally had those moves that are seen in these 2 other sets?
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;871391]Reply]
Do you mean The Yue Fei? The one associated with the Southern Songs military and Eagle Claw? That would explain the oral legends of Southern Tai Jow originally being basic military training too then![/QUOTE]
Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn’t him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.
They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.
Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.
(the Zhao clan’s movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)
The name could still be referring to Zhao Kuang Yin though even if the martial arts came form Yue Fei’s troops, because Zhao founded the dynasty. The uneducated might naturally assumed the style was his, or some variant of his art if it was taught in the military.
Remember, there are Long Fist styles in Shandong that have nothing to do with Zhao Kuang Yin, but are still named in honor of him because he initiated Long Fist practice at Shaolin. This could be the same thing, only a different angle of it.
The other thought it that the style may have gone public before Yue Fei’s vindication, so the name of the art was chosen to be after Zhao as a marketing decision of sorts.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871498]No , not what I am seeing, the rest of the rows follows the same path as ta ji quan yi lu set, which mostly follows tai zu chang 32, but the movements that are not really seen in the TZ set are seen both here in the Ba fan shou sets and the tai ji quan yi lu set.
That I am finding very strange, wonder what it means?
Both are drawing from the same source?
Or the TZ 32 set originally had those moves that are seen in these 2 other sets?[/QUOTE]
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Maybe these moves are found in Qi jiguang’s set?
As for these moves being lost moves of the Tai tzu 32, I think it is possible, BUT we have the songs, and all 32 postures form those songs are in the set, so I think it is complete. These moves might be additions later though.
If they DO belong on the 32 Tai tzu Chang Chuan set, then are they moves that somehow fit the songs as well?
If they ARE moves left out, say to mark the set, then finding a line not connected to Shaolin from the surrounding villages would be important. They would still have those moves intact. They might remove others in thier own effort to mark the set, but since they would not be under the direction of shaolin, then the moves they remove would be of thier own choice and would most likely be different ones. So we need to see a local village example of the form to know.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;871506]Reply]
Maybe these moves are found in Qi jiguang’s set?
As for these moves being lost moves of the Tai tzu 32, I think it is possible, BUT we have the songs, and all 32 postures form those songs are in the set, so I think it is complete. These moves might be additions later though.
If they DO belong on the 32 Tai tzu Chang Chuan set, then are they moves that somehow fit the songs as well?
If they ARE moves left out, say to mark the set, then finding a line not connected to Shaolin from the surrounding villages would be important. They would still have those moves intact. They might remove others in thier own effort to mark the set, but since they would not be under the direction of shaolin, then the moves they remove would be of thier own choice and would most likely be different ones. So we need to see a local village example of the form to know.[/QUOTE]
Possible.
Could also mean either Chen/Zhao Bao/Etc and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou are drawing from the same source (which added the extra moves) which would then imply that Chen took their set from somewhere else in it’s entirety (which that Tongbei style that I posted the video links to at Emptyflower shows the almost exact set).
OR
These taiji styles drew their inspiration from Ba Fan Shan style?
Hi - I am trying to follow your exegesis here - if I understand correctly, you are trying to discern Shaolin-based roots of taijiquan? or is that an oversimplification / am I missing something else?
Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin learned his Tong Bei from the same source as the Chen family did at a later date (hundreds of years later), and he eliminated those extra moves himself.
Remember, Tai tzu is a distillation of the prominent military styles of the time, and Zhao’s Hong set was a distillation of all the styles he was good at as well, so it stands to reason that many moves may have been dropped from his previous styles because he just didn’t use them often in actual battle.
The other thing to think of, Chen Want Ting and the Li Brothers went to Qianzhi temple to learn. By then they were surely experienced martial artists, especially Chen, Wang Ting because of his military career.
So if Zhao Kuang Yin (or the creators of the 32) removed those extra moves because he didn’t use them much, maybe they were still in the Tong Bei taught at Qianzhi, and Chen Wang Ting added them back in?
Zhao Kuang Yin may not have actually been at Shaolin to add his imput to the 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, BUT you have told me the Shaolin records state that they Started with his style, so it stands to reason he would have had imput in it’s creation.
I can picture the Monks going to the palace with the form, and Zhao looking at it, then saying “not bad, but get rid of these moves here, and this one over there, we never use them in battle anyway.”
The Monks would then go back and continue working on the form untill it was time to show Zhao thier progress again.
If the Monks really liked those moves, maybe they lived on in a “Unofficial” version that spread to the villages later down the road.