[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;773484]Question, if you poisioned your brother to take the throne from him, would you keep surrounded by his most trusted and loyal body guards and military generals? Or would you Retire them and send them all back to whatever provinces they originally came from?
I know what I would do.
That all being said, then it is very likely that the sets you see that are most similar, but found in such a wide and spread out geographic area most likely come from Zhoa Kuang Yin’s core people as thye spread out and went home. Suddenly finding themselves unemployed, they probably all taught the style to survive. Today you have strong holds of the system whereever they settled after being discharged from service.
Which means that the forms in question are probably from either 960-976 OR were part of the Imperial Guards style from when Zhao was it’s commander. OR,OR, a blend of the two and also mixed a bit with his personal style.
Now, this leads to another question. If the system did infact have forms prior to the development of the shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (and this latest revalation sugests that that it did), then did Shaolin really develop the first section of thier form? or did the Generals just teach them Zhao’s already existing form and they just developed the other two sections? I have been wondering about this because the 32 is based on a Taoist number, Zhao was a Taoist, but Shaolin uses Budhist numerology.
Do the texts say who developed what, and at what time? Maybe the 2 &3 sections are what the shaolin developed from the General’s teachings, but not the 32?[/QUOTE]
Well, if you read your Song history, Zhao KY was in south China, waging war to add the southern areas to the empire.
He called to have a meeting alone with his brother (not at his throne, and without his inner guard), and the next day he was found dead.
Yeah, most likely his inner guard were sent back to Sichuan province. Who knows.
I would think that they were ****ed he was dead. For all we know, they were executed. I have to look into that.
So, they brought into to ZHao KY their own martial arts, Nei Jia Quan, and if they also brought back something from Zhao, since in Emei they do that Zhao Men (which means literally Zhao’s, Zhao Family, Zhao Gate, Zhao School) 7 Star Fist, also known as Hawk Fist.
(Also, at Emei, they practice a set called Hong Men Quan.
I am getting a copy of this set any day. This set might be from the Zhao family members that went hiding in Sichuan area at the fall of the Northern Song times. Or it might be from Emei already from before that.
So, there is two periods when there was an influx of Zhao family material into Emei area, after ZKY died and after the Song Dynasty collapsed.
In Sichuan there is a rare style called Hong Men that is a from Zhao’s family, and it is kinda like Hung Gar a bit).
SO, these Zhao related Emei sets could have come to that area from two sources and two time periods.
Plus there is the Nei Jia Quan sets that they brought over to Zhao KY.
Being that he was a lover of Martial Arts, he must have worked out their styles with them, when he had the time, which was not much.
Before he went south and died, he gave Shaolin all his papers and manuals he wrote on his martial arts ideas and so on. This material was not an influence on Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan. That set has the “Grand Ancestor” name for TWO reasons, one it is named in honor of ZKY (since he set up the event) and two it is the set that all new sets would be based on. Over 300 sets were developed (counting weapons, over 200 sets were empty hand sets) during that time period, most were lost over time, but they spread into the countryside and all over China eventually. “Village Long Fist” found all over China is just watered sets from this original material. This TZ Chang Quan was an amalgamation of the best ideas from all these experts. They did not teach “what Zhao taught them” cause there was no reason for Zhao, nor time, to teach people that already were experts in Tong Bei and so on.
And this Shaolin TZ Chang Quan form set the tone of what Shaolin Quan essentially is: sudden and confusing redirection of movements meant to confuse the enemy, to make his lose track of your movements so that you can fool him and clobber him.
HENCE, the main martial art known to come from Shaolin originating from the Song Dynasty according to all the oral transmission, that many areas including Emai, Wudang, Shaolin itself, and so on, is called LOST TRACK Fist, and it looks the most like Tao Tzu Quan stuff. Each place has a Yan Qing set of their own, Yan Qing is considered the person who brought these sets out of Shaolin area, which later became called “Lost Track” boxing. So, if you want to see what most likely this Song dynasty stuff that Shaolin was doing back then, look at the Lost Track (Mi Tsung) / Yan Qing sets. Shaolin itself lost the sets over time (due to wars, etc etc).
As far as what Zhao KY, his generals, and his soldiers practiced, they picked where they left off, naturally/logically, since they usurped the throne from someone else. They already practiced the military arts of the times, which Song military manuals show to be Tong Bei. When and why would they ever had the time or need to learn “Zhao’s martial art”? Plus, he didn’t have a “system” yet when he first took the throne, he was busy for years killing people in wars. WHEN he was emperor and when it was peacetime, he had the time to write his notes and manuals. Which he later passed to Shaolin library years later, way after the meeting of masters took place at Shaolin. In fact, more than likely he learned something from the sets that were being developed. It was a revolutionary thing that was happening, creating standard sets to be judged by, no one did that before this time, they just practiced “best techniques of so and so”. Hence, that legendary list of 18 masters shows not styles but a special technique each master was known for (not that the 18 masters list and legend from Preying Mantis is factual, but it is based on a kernal of truth of something that once happened).
According to Shaolin’s written records, Tong Bei in that area goes back the the Tang Dynasty, way before Song Dynasty. And it was also all over China, each province had their own version. It was simply military long fist, with “ape monkey” and sword movements making up the style’s empty hand and weapons techniques.
Hence, why Zhao family practiced “Monkey boxing” (it wasn’t the acrobatic monkey stuff we see today, it was a type of tong bei with hooking in foot steps and low and high postures that alternate, and the arms swing with the hip turning in unison. Originally this Tong Bei was called Tong Bi, through the arms, not through the back as it is now known.
Shaolin Tong Bi Quan sets are most likely the closest you’ll get to seeing what this early Tong Bi was like.
It enters Shaolin via the military people that came there since the Tang Dynasty.
Shaolin martial monks were like the National Guard in reserve for the Tang Emperors (though some Tang emperors didn’t like Shaolin and treated them bad).
No one who does this research is of the opinion that Zhao taught he personal style to his soldiers. How? When? Why? Think about it, they were already trained, during Zhao’s KY time, he shrunk the military, it was peacetime, he kept a standing army to invade neighboring states and bring them into the empire. They were one place and he was another place. He has a really short life don’t forget.
The martial art that he developed on his own, based on the tong bei and other stuff he picked up (just individual techniques, not sets or whole styles) from people he met before he became part of the Zhou army, he wrote about in his notes, and more than likely this was what his family practiced. This is evidenced by the fact that everywhere that descendants of Zhao (directly his and from his brothers descendants) went, they spread a type of Chang Quan, which people called Tai Tzu Quan.
The reason people call the Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan set a “32” posture set is because of General Qi’s book, where he mentions the style and shows a 32 posture set (which no one is sure what it really is). The actual set has 54 movements (not still postures), which is a Buddhist number.
(the only people that really practice this actual 32 move set of General Qi is his descendants, who practice Qi Jia Quan, and they do this set exactly like in his book. I think the problem today is that some lineages have used the book to learn this set from and incorporated it into their tai tzu quan and people now think Qi’s set is a tai tzu quan set, when it might not be at all really.
The other weird thing is what is Tai Tzu HONG Quan in actuality?
We’ve seen that the Diao (hawk / falcon) Hong Quan sets from Shanxi, Emei, and Wudang are pretty much the same material.
And this material has most of the signature moves seen in Shandong Hong Quan and Tai Tzi Hong Quan from that area too.
Shantong Hong Quan comes there in the 1700s from Shaolin monks that left when it burned down (again).
(Zha or Cha Quan’s Hong Quan sets have nothing to do with Shaolin Hong Quan, they are just variations of Cha Quan sets done with a different timing and flaver. Hong means “Flowing” not “red”.
The only thing you see in Both types of Hong Quan is the hooked hand move that Cha Quan is famous for.
BUT< all the Hawk sets that I mentioned have this hook hand move, and the earliest sets that show this hook hand that are not Cha Quan related is the Rou Quan 108 posture set, from that set it spread out to the Shaolin sets that were derived from it.
So, again, what is TZ Hong Quan? What makes it a Hong Quan?
The special movements deemed as signature move in TZ Hong Quan are first seen in the Rou Quan 108 set.
