the father (mother?) of all Hong Quan long fist styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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This is a VERY RARE video of the entire LiuBujia set from the Da Hong Quan style from the areas of the Yellow River basin.
It goes very far back, and it is one of the oldest long fist martial arts.

It is thought that General Zhao Kuangyin practiced this material, since many soldiers of his era from the Luoyang area practiced it.
As you can see, it very much looks like an early protype for the Hong Quan later practiced in Shaolin and the Lao Hong Quan that is practiced in Dengfang area near Shaolin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

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some background

da hong quan big vast fist -
The legend of the founding of this style traces the origins at the Sui dynasty by Hong Xian .
During the Tang Dynasty, there are historical documents that attest that a teacher of Jilin, Liu Fengguai (also known as Liu Banxiang ), taught a boxing divided into six sections that has been identified with the Taolu known as Liu bu jia , the basic structure of the Hongquan. this set is sometimes known as the San Huang Bang as well.

In the xinshu of the famous of General Qi Jiguang says “in the boxing family’s dynasty of Song Taizu’s 32 shi changquan , there is also the Liubuquan, the Hou quan (monkey boxing), the Hua quan . . .”. The Liubuquan is identified with the Liubujia.

During the Song dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, and the Ming dynasty Liubujia has spread dramatically in the basin of the Yellow River, giving life to many variations. Lao yang area practices this Da Hong Quan still today, as does the Kaifeng area of eastern China.

This style has only a few short sets, and most of them are done in pairs. It has many drills (known as Chui, hammers).

During the Song Dynasty era, sometimes this style was called Black Tiger Boxing.
It became known as Da Hong Quan by the beginning of the Ming Dynasty. The original name was simply Liubujia, 6 Step Frame (frames were what sets were called, before full fledged Routines came into existence, Frames are a collection of drills linked together, it is a group of postures).

All sub-styles of Da Hongquan share their basic structure as “San Huang Bang”, which shows their common origin, despite legends to identify different foundation. Wudang Hong Quan, Er Hong Quan, and Zhao Family Hong Quan all have different legends to their origins, but all share the same material, so they are obviously all arising from this original Da Hong Quan (Big Vast Fist). The character for Vast also means Wild Goose.

3

Disappointing

excuse me, but if this is the real precursor form to Xiaohongquan or Dahongquan and I was the Abbot I wouldn’t want anyone to know that our gong fu looked like that before we reformed and restructured it into the devasting style that it is today. I would have made sure that that form was for a long time never ever seen. But now that the form has been ‘revived’ they can say: “Man the gong fu we knew last week was horrible! But this new gong fu is the kind that will make us legendary” Even though, I would still forget that form ever existed.

4

Disappointing

excuse me, but if this is the real precursor form to Xiaohongquan or Dahongquan and I was the Abbot I wouldn’t want anyone to know that our gong fu looked like that before we reformed and restructured it into the devasting style that it is today. I would have made sure that that form was for a long time never ever seen. But now that the form has been ‘revived’ they can say:

“Man the gong fu we knew last week was horrible! But this new gong fu is the kind that will make us legendary”

Even though, I would still forget that form ever existed.

5

[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;948445]excuse me, but if this is the real precursor form to Xiaohongquan or Dahongquan and I was the Abbot I wouldn’t want anyone to know that our gong fu looked like that before we reformed and restructured it into the devasting style that it is today. I would have made sure that that form was for a long time never ever seen. But now that the form has been ‘revived’ they can say:

“Man the gong fu we knew last week was horrible! But this new gong fu is the kind that will make us legendary”

Even though, I would still forget that form ever existed.[/QUOTE]

You must be a real newbie, that’s for sure. Or else you would clearly be able to see that his ancient Da Hong Quan would wipe any modern Hong Quan player off the map.
And, this is not a “revived” set, it’s been documented and handed down for many hundreds of years before Shaolin boxing even existed.

Anyways, the Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan practiced today is a fragment of what it was originally like when it was first developed, or actually brought to Shaolin really, by Li Sou during the 1400s. The Xiao Hong quan set is just an abbreviation of the version that was taught even about 60 years ago. It is missing the whole first section now and many movements here and there in the set which were once there.

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Another version of the set, done faster by a different person:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-sQ7T5a9pI

Compare to a better performed version of Shaolin Da Hong Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4

You will see that much of the set matches in not only postures but some sequences of movements. This tells you that the Big Vast Fist (San Huang Bang / Liu Ba Jia set) was ancestral to the Shaolin set.

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Thanks for sharing Sal. I saw elements of Tai Tzu in there as well. Great research. I wonder though if the first guy made some mistake because he ended his form facing the other way.

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Nice that vid was pretty cool. You can tell that was done before Xiao or Da Hong quan. but are the sets the same or the same form by two different people…by people I mean sects?

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[QUOTE=sha0lin1;948465]Thanks for sharing Sal. I saw elements of Tai Tzu in there as well. Great research. I wonder though if the first guy made some mistake because he ended his form facing the other way.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it should be in there since it was what the military advisers who helped Shaolin develop the Taizu Chang Quan set most likely practiced way back then (963 AD).

Hmm, this form starts off not straight to the audience, but facing your right, then it moves to the right and then to the left.
he just might have been stepping around a little too far over.

The Pao Quan sets finish with the back to the audience, because if you do all of them in a row, the last set brings you back the right way.
Which means that the way the Pao Quan was originally done was all the sets in a row with no space between then (hence they are really sections of one big set).

By the way, Shaolin Pao Quan was not a separate style, but a series of sets within the Shaolin Hong Quan system, along with a series of other sets, including the Taizu Chang Quan set and others. The Da Hong Quan style that eventually reached Shaolin was originally a system, of sets and weapons routines.

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[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;948486]Nice that vid was pretty cool. You can tell that was done before Xiao or Da Hong quan. but are the sets the same or the same form by two different people…by people I mean sects?[/QUOTE]

Well, the two Big Vast Fists sets are the same form by two different people.
The Shaolin Da Hong Quan I posted the link too was a traditional old version of section one of Shaolin Da hong Quan (there are about 5 more sections in total, but they are rarely taught today at Shaolin).

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If I may ask, you mention that:

“there are historical documents that attest that a teacher of Jilin, Liu Fengguai (also known as Liu Banxiang ), taught a boxing divided into six sections that has been identified with the Taolu known as Liu bu jia , the basic structure of the Hongquan. this set is sometimes known as the San Huang Bang as well”.

What is the title of these historical documents, where did you see these documents and what makes you think they are authentic.

I am asking simply as a historian who has a strong interest in historical Chinese martial arts documents..

Take care,
Brian

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Like Brian I am also researching these old traditions.

I would also like to hear what books and documentation exists.
In particular I have noticed several references to Zhao Kuangying having transmitted martial arts.

Besides mouth to ear transmission what other documentation exists showing or stating that the first Song emperor trained empty hand fighting or passed it down?

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Thanks for posting Sal, some pretty striking resembelances there. i wish i have a video of my shaolin da hong quan so you could give me some insight as to how much i have. i was taught 2 versions (by the same teacher), and since combined them. :eek:

i always loved the internal quality of that shaolin da hong quan video. that old guy has some zip !

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[QUOTE=sha0lin1;948465]Thanks for sharing Sal. I saw elements of Tai Tzu in there as well. Great research. I wonder though if the first guy made some mistake because he ended his form facing the other way.[/QUOTE]

Routine 2 of Da Hong finishes with back facing audience and routine 3 starts back facing audience. If these sets are a precursor to modern Da Hong and we put two and two together I would guess he intentionally finished back facing audience.

Great post by the way Sal I really appreciate all the research you do for Shaolin players.

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hey sal always enjoy reading your research and thoughts on different taolu, history and the like. was interested in your thoughts along with anyone else about these forms of xiao hong and da hong from the shaolin wu gu lun sect. do you think the original hong quan sets would of had more similarities to some of these? i noticed compared to the older hong quan you posted before that the toes pointed upwards on the out stretched foot when dropping to the ground same as the wugulun posture however have never seen other shifu’s from shaolin teach it this way? any thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pf8yrXy0ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGO2iIgx6I&feature=related

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i cannot comment on that aspect much, but i was also taught by my sifu with the toes pointing up. one of the reasons described for this was your momentum will carry you inside for a handsweep/takedown/throw. we were actually taught it 3 ways, one with a flat foot, one with a flat foot then rotating up and a third starting with the toes up with a kind of ‘glide’. each of course representing different aspects of application. you can also feel the difference in allignment when you carry forward with toes up vs flat footed.

my sifu learned his shaolin in a cambodian monestary however and not at shaolin. how many generations the material was housed in that particular monestary, i do not know.

i learned my shaolin from Sifu Duy Minh Tran

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VERY INTERESTING!!!

Sal, do you remember a style we were discussing a while back, that supposedly was built on Zhao Kuang Yin’s arts? Wensengquan I think it was? Looking at this form, I can clearly see where all the shuffle steps came from in it. Also, I see the Plow hammer, and several other primordial Tai Tzu, Lao Hongquan techniques in this. The way he is performing them makes me think I have the applications wrong.

This is an incredible find, I have to say I am seeing all sorts of connections with this.

Honestly, as soon as I have time, i need to work this set out, and get a feel for it.

We are going to have to get together and go over this new material, I see some real treasures in this set, especially for those of us who are interested specifically in Zhao Kuang yin’s arts.

18

Greetings,

Though the form is interesting, it looks resurrected: as if it was extracted from a book. I say this because while the postures are strong and definite, the transitions are weak, making me also think that if this did not come from a book, it was a foundaton, stance training, form. Or (lightbub turning on, y’all), it could have been paced and structured that way for mass military training.

The Black Tiger connection was interesting. I can see the powerful reverse punches.

Thank you for the share, Sal,

mickey

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Well, back in the time this style was prevelant, forms were not very common. My understanding is that most styles were taught through series of drills and exercises, so a form that old should look like a bunch of much shorter drills strung together, rather than a modern looking form.

20

uan

[QUOTE=mickey;950077]Greetings,

Though the form is interesting, it looks resurrected: as if it was extracted from a book. I say this because while the postures are strong and definite, the transitions are weak, making me also think that if this did not come from a book, it was a foundaton, stance training, form. Or (lightbub turning on, y’all), it could have been paced and structured that way for mass military training.

The Black Tiger connection was interesting. I can see the powerful reverse punches.

Thank you for the share, Sal,

mickey[/QUOTE]

It’s not a form, forms existed much later in time, let’s say Ming dynasty just to make everyone happy.

It’s a “Jia”, a “Frame”, Jia preceded forms, “Quan”. A Jia or Frame was a set of movements arranged in a row, you practiced each movement separately as a drill, the concepts of the style are practiced on the “Frame” set.

Forms like we know them are smooth “Lianhuan” or “Linking” of movements such that the transitions are free flowing. Which is what term, “Chang Quan” meant, a long flow of movements.

Chang Quan was considered a major innovation.
Thus, the Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan set, is considered their oldest FOUNDATION, their Grand Ancestor, from which all their subsequent sets are based on.
(It’s not named after Song Taizu Zhang Kuangyin, which would have illegal to do, plus he wasn’t called that until after his death).