the father (mother?) of all Hong Quan long fist styles

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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[QUOTE=brianlkennedy;948619]If I may ask, you mention that:

“there are historical documents that attest that a teacher of Jilin, Liu Fengguai (also known as Liu Banxiang ), taught a boxing divided into six sections that has been identified with the Taolu known as Liu bu jia , the basic structure of the Hongquan. this set is sometimes known as the San Huang Bang as well”.

What is the title of these historical documents, where did you see these documents and what makes you think they are authentic.

I am asking simply as a historian who has a strong interest in historical Chinese martial arts documents..

Take care,
Brian[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry I haven’t been able to answer, I have been in the hospital for a week and just got out a few days ago. I’m very sick and have to get a serious operation in a few months.

Anyways, yeah, almost every source I read about this particular Da Hong Quan material (The LiuBu Jia or the San Huang Bang) has this same quote about Liu Fengguai being the first known person to teach this material.

If you can please get a hold of the book “Da Hong Quan” ISBN 7-5009-2857-2.

Hu Guangfeng, Shizhan Jueji - Mi Jie Sanhuangbang - (Combat Skill: detailed explanation of the secrets of Sanhuangbang), Hubei Kexue Jishu chubanshe, 2006, ISBN 9787535236159

Also, these articles:

Shaanxi hongquan yao chongzhen xiri huihuang article published in the newspaper Xi’an wanbao March 27, 2006

José Carmona, De Shaolin à Wudang, les arts martiaux chinois, Gui Trenadiel editeur. ISBN 2.844445.085.7 ISBN 2.844445.085.7

Hu Guangfeng , Tujie dahongquan St. huang bang series of articles published in 2005 in the journal Jingwu .

Peixian wudang hongquan yuanliu

Peixian Wushu Zhi , Peixian , 2000

Da Hong quan

The legend of the founding of this style traces the origins at the Sui dynasty by Hong Xian . During the Tang Dynasty, there are historical documents that attest that a teacher of Jilin, Liu Fengguai (also known as Liu Banxiang ), taught a boxing divided into six sections that has been identified with the Taolu known as Liu bu jia , the basic structure of the Hongquan. In the xinshu of the famous of General Qi Jiguang says “in the boxing family’s dynasty of Song Taizu’s 32 shi changquan , there is also the Liubuquan, the Hou quan (monkey boxing), the Hua quan . . .”. The Liubuquan is identified with the Liubujia. During the Song dynasty, the Yuan dynasty, and the Ming dynasty Liubujia has spread dramatically in the basin of the Yellow River, giving life to many variations. Lao yang area practices this Da Hong Quan still today.

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[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;948622]Like Brian I am also researching these old traditions.

I would also like to hear what books and documentation exists.
In particular I have noticed several references to Zhao Kuangying having transmitted martial arts.

Besides mouth to ear transmission what other documentation exists showing or stating that the first Song emperor trained empty hand fighting or passed it down?[/QUOTE]

If you can read Chinese I can email you a series of articles.

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[QUOTE=wuseng33;948821]hey sal always enjoy reading your research and thoughts on different taolu, history and the like. was interested in your thoughts along with anyone else about these forms of xiao hong and da hong from the shaolin wu gu lun sect. do you think the original hong quan sets would of had more similarities to some of these? i noticed compared to the older hong quan you posted before that the toes pointed upwards on the out stretched foot when dropping to the ground same as the wugulun posture however have never seen other shifu’s from shaolin teach it this way? any thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pf8yrXy0ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGO2iIgx6I&feature=related[/QUOTE]

In the Shaolin Nei gong sets of Liuhe Gong, Chan Yuan Gong, and Luohan 13 Gong, the toes point upwards. These nei gong sets preceded their long fist sets.

Modern Shaolin sets have nothing of the original body mechanics first seen in these nei gong sets (which I teach in seminars by the way), which is one way of dating sets when you see them done.

Wu Gulun sect has a strong Chen TJQ influence though, so there can be a feedback loop going on between their Shaolin and Chen TJQ.

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I added two more videos of the Da Hong Quan (Big Vast or Goose Fist) Liubu Jia (6 Step Frame - referring to the 6 Sections of the set, And the fact like all ancient rooted sets, there one advances only 3 steps forward on each side of a row of movements) set on youtube. One is an old man doing it super fast! And the other is slow showing of the internal body mechanics (clip ends halfway through unfortunately, every version I have seen of this clip has an error in it).

Following are the names of each posture, there is an incredible amount of overlap between Shaolin TZ Chang Quan, Shaolin Lao Hong Quan, Xiao and Da Hong Quan, and other styles. But the movements as they are done in this style appear prototypical rather than more refined as they are later seen in the other Chang and Hong Quan styles. Multiple movements are done for each posture.

  • Da Hong Quan - Liu Bu Jia ( - San Huang Bang)
  1. Yu Bei Shi (Preparation Position)
    • San Huang Bang (Three Dazzling Wings / Upper arms)

Section 1
3. - Shang Bu Shun Feng Chui (Forward Step Following Wind Hammer)
4. - Ding Bu Ye Shou (Nail Step Tucking in Hand)
5. Gong Bu Dan Bian (Bow Step Single Whip)
6. Zhen Jiao Shi-Zi Chui (Shaking / Shocking Foot Crossing Hammer)
7. Dao Bu Hui Ma Chui (Reverse / Pour-out Step Turn-around Horse Hammer)
8. - Ding Bu Ye Shou (Nail Step Tucking in Hand)
9. Gong Bu Dan Bian (Bow Step Single Whip)
10. Beng Bu Shun Feng Chui (Bursting Step Following Wind Hammer)
11. - Ding Bu Shuang Tiao Zhang (Nail Step Double Raising [Carry] Palm)
12. Gong Bu Dan Bian (Bow Step Single Whip)
13. Zhuo Xi Tong Tien Pao (Seize Knee Through Sky Cannon)
14. Yao Bang Dan Bian (Shake/Rock Wing / Upper-arm Single Whip)
15. Ju Bu Lou Sa Shi (Crouching Step Embrace Spread Position)
16. - Ma Bu Shuang Cheng Chui (Horse Step Double Supporting Hammer)
17. Shi-Zi Chui (Crossing Hammer)
18. Beng Bu Shun Feng Chui (Bursting Step Following Wind Hammer)

Section 2
19. - Si Bu Cheng Zhang (Four Step Supporting Palm)
20. Che Bu Da Hu (Withdrawing Step Beat Tiger)

Section 3
21. Shang Bu Shuang Chui (Forward Step Double Hammer)
22. Zhuan Shen Shi-Zi Chui (Turn Body Crossing Hammer)
23. - Shi Tui Au Bu Da Chui (Pick-up Leg Twist Step Strike Hammer)
24. Pan Zhou Shi-Zi Chui (Coil [level] Elbows Crossing Hammer)
25. - Shi Tui Au Bu Da Chui (Pick-up Leg Twist Step Strike Hammer)
26. Beng Bu Shun Feng Chui - Bursting Step Following Wind Hammer

Section 4
27. Ce Zhong Shen Pu Bu Shi Tui (Inclined Vertical Body Fall-prostate Step Pick-up Leg)
28. Dian Bu Shi-Zi Chui (Tip-toe Step Crossing Hammer)
29. Gong Bu Xie Cheng Chui (Bow Step Slanting Supporting Hammer)

Section 5
30. - Ding Bu Bei Chui (Nail Step Back Hammer)
31. - Ma Bu Shuang Cheng Chui (Horse Step Double Supporting Hammer)
32. Yuan Di Er Qi Jiao (Level [originating] Ground Two Raising Feet)
33. Fan Shen Qiang Pi Shun Feng Chui (Turnover Body Spear Split Following Wind Hammer)
34. Pan Zhou Shi-Zi Chui (Coil [level] Elbows Crossing Hammer)
35. Beng Bu Shun Feng Chui (Bursting Step Following Wind Hammer)

Section 6
36. Zhong Tiao Bu Heng Cheng Chui (Vertical Jump Step Horizontal Supporting Hammer)
37. Zhuan Shen Shi-Zi Chui (Turn Body Crossing Hammer)
38. Pu Leng Ye (Ambush [Rush upon] Timber Leaves)
39. Ma Bu Shun Feng Chui (Horse Step Following Wind Hammer)
40. Zhuan Shen Shi-Zi Chui (Turn Body Crossing Hammer)
41. Qiang Za Shun Feng Chui (Spear Smash Following Wind Hammer)
42. (Closing Position)

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Sal, I have to say, your work in this area is nothing short of amazing. Every time we speak, you reveal new depth to this subject. I can remember just 5 years ago, all these sets were still mysteries.

I think we all owe you a debt of gratitude for all of your hard work, and more importantly, your willingness to openly share.

:slight_smile:

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Thanks. One thing to people keep in mind, we not just merely looking at forms and saying yep, they look alike so threfore one comes from the other.

There is a much deeper analysis of all the postures and movements, where percentage of overlap is researched by region; who taught what to whom when and where is researched; and in this case, a further special analysis was done where the movements of many Hong Quan sets from Henan and Shandong and other provinces were looked at in such a way that all the “new” postures NOT in common between the sets were deleted and what was left was a CORE skeleton of movements and postures.
What is really remarkable about this particular Liubu Jia set from this particular Da Hong Quan style, and which gives credence to the idea that this may indeed be the origin point of all Hong Quan sets, is ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING:
once the non overlaping material is stripped away, the core movements left are in the SAME SEQUENCE OF MOVEMENTS as in this Liubu Jia Set.
The Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets, the Shandong Hong Quan sets, the Henan Hong Quan sets, the Shaolin Lao Hong Quan sets all share the same common core movements and postures found in the Liubu Jia set and they are done in fairly the same sequence of movements. In fact there is nothing done in the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan set that is not already found in the Liubu Jia set and done in roughly the same order. They might use different names for the movements and postures but they are the same.

Also, the fact that the Liubu Jia set is fairly similar to the Shandong Wencheng Quan style, a style who clearly states that their martial material came from mixing together later Taoist nei gong movements with martial movements from the Zhao family’s Lao Hong Quan and Chang Quan sets. The fact that these Wencheng Quan sets are very similar to the Liubu Jia set shows that indeed the Lao Hong Quan and Chang Quan base may have been derived from this Da Hong Quan style’s Liubu Jia set.

THe Liubu Jia is a cruder, non sophisticated, more military oriented way of doing the movements later seen many hundreds of years later in all the many Hong Quan style found throughout China by the Qing dynasty. You can easily do the Liubu Jia movments with a straight sword (Jian) or knife (dao- broadsword) and nothing needs to be changed.

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I love this video of Wenchenqquan style (halfway through are the applications):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXHEk1P8gQk

ha! Does he pay these people to get beat up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoERMXVhLlc

You can clearly see that they use this old Da Hong Quan style as a root, and their style’s quan pu even says that they did so, claiming that their style was founding by a descendant of the Song royal Zhao family, of which originally practiced the Da Hong Quan style from the Luoyang / Yellow River basin (which was originally known as Liubu Jia) and merged it with some Taoist neigong movements.

Compare to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvFvl0HzlpE

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My old research notes show that the Shandong Province Wensheng Quan style attributes its founding to the people with the same surname as that of the Henan Province Da Hong Quan style’s founder, Liu Fengguai (also known as Liu Banxiang ), from the Sui Dynasty:

Wensheng Quan’s original theory and movements were first formed by Liu Fengtian during the Wanli period of the Ming Dinasty, between 1572 and 1620. Liu was not his original name. His ancestor was Li Yuanba who was imperial kinsmen in the Tang dinasty. Li Yuanba founded a religious sect containing Yin/Yang theory, the study of the Art of War, Medicine, and Wushu. Since Liu Fengtians childhood, he had begun learning Daoyin skills and practiced Taoist Neijia Quan. Afterwards, he lived in Shan county, in Shandong, where he learned boxing methods and something called Bagua Eight- writing Song.

Among Lius disciples was Gao Yunlong (the leader of Ligua), also known as Gao Nanguo, was a master of the Song Taizu Chang Quan and Lao Hong Quan, and related weapon sets. Gao was a descendent of Zhao Kuangyin, the founder of the Song Dynasty (960-1127). Therefore, Wensheng Quan is connected at least indirectly to all the Shaolin Taizu Quan related martial arts. Liu and Gao together combined Taoist Neigong and the Zhao familys 108 postures of Lao Hong Quan and the 32 postures of Taizu Chang Quan. Their new effort more perfectly combined internal and external actions and had definite health benefits (most practitioners live a very long time. Wensheng Quan combines spiral motion with the meridians and collaterals of traditional Chinese medicine to maximize body strength), sharing many attributes with Taiji Quan, which was developed around the same 1600s time period.

During the Qing Dynasty, the style was further developed by Du Hong Sin, from Jining. The name of the art has changed in history from “Du Jia Quan” (Du Family Boxing) to “Wu Bu Jia” (Five Step Frame) to “Chang Shou Quan” (Long Life Boxing). The style was practiced in the provinces of Hebei, Henan, Zhili, Shanxi, and Shandong. By the fourth generation it reached Song Chuanping in the Jining area, and the style became called Wensheng Quan, of which “Wen” means Traditional Chinese Culture, “Sheng” means to cultivate above wordly considerations.

Wensheng Quan has, and two main stages. One is called “Tou Shang Jia” which trains the breath with five kinds of Zhuang Gong (stance holding exercises). The Toutang Mujia in Wensheng Quan includes the Quan philosophy and combats essence of the Wensheng Quan and has only 32 simple forms (from roots in Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures). The second stage is called “Er Tang Jia” which has six sets of training, five sets of hands, five sets of elbows, five sets of arms, six sets of steps, eigth sets of footwork. It has 108 forms divided into 6 sections (from roots in the Lao Hong Quna 108 postures). Since Wensheng Quan was a a type of neijia from ancient times, it contains movements from times when weapons were used on horseback, such as spear play, sword, bow, etc.

Most Wensheng Quan can be practiced in Wen Gong (literary or “static”) mode or Wu Gong (martial or “active”) mode. Therefore the style has many postures than can be performed standing, sitting, lying, and in lotus positions. As in other more ancient styles, when forms were first being developed, Wensheng Quan concentrates on small sequences of moves in combination. These can be strung together in tangs or laps. They can be practiced broken into parts or mixed linked into longer sections. The style has a partner practice that is something like a combination of Push Hands (Tui Shou), Sticky Hands, and Joint Locks (Qinna), for developing listening and fighting skills known as Kamo Shou which can be translated as “probing” or “shaving” hands.

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[QUOTE=sha0lin1;948465]Thanks for sharing Sal. I saw elements of Tai Tzu in there as well. Great research. I wonder though if the first guy made some mistake because he ended his form facing the other way.[/QUOTE]

Aha, today I found out that, like other styles that are from more ancient background, there is a second side to this side. And when you end the first side, you can begin doing the second side against the other person now doing the first side.

The second side allows the one doing the first side to do the applications.

I found that this is the same condition as two other two-person sets that I have learned from the Wah Quan and Shaolin traditions, such as The Luohan 18 Fists set and the Ba Bu Lianhuan Quan - 8 Step Linking Fist set.
The second side of the 18 Luohan set sets up the applications of the first side, and it introduces a new technique, the Crazy Devil movements.
The second side of the Babu Lianhuan set is pretty hard to do, it’s all attacking mode and dependent on the first side.

Same here with the second side of this Liubu Jia set, its all in attacking mode and depends on what the first side is doing.

Many ancient sword sets (of which this Liubu Jia set is most like since there are mostly sudden thrusting movements) also feature this two person trade off routines, with Side B in attacking mode and allowing the applications of side A to show themselves in combat.

What you do continuously in this Liubu Jia set is scissor through the opponent, which in today’s Shaolin Hong Quan and Chang Quan sets this is considered the “secret” application to the movements, rather than a punch being just a punch, they are take down movements that arose from using hand held weapons (I guess you would do them in case you dropped your weapon and since all you knew how do to is military drills, you would continue to do them despite losing your weapon; in other words, you would do what you how to do best, your drill movements.

30

Quan

Some more things I learned about this Big Vast Fist Da Hong Quan style:

The Liubu Jia very much looks like an early protype for the Hong Quan later practiced in Shaolin, the Lao Hong Quan that is practiced in Dengfang area near Shaolin, and various Hong Quan (and Wensheng Quan) practiced in the Shandong area. In the Liubu Jia can be found many movements later seen in these Shaolin derived Hong Quan and Taizu Chang Quan styles, such as “Single Whip – Dan Bian”, Golden Chicken Independently Stands, Slanting Shape – “Xie Xing”, and many more. it is the earliest style to actually have a posture named “Single Whip”. The Liubu Jia is a cruder, non sophisticated, more military oriented way of doing the more refined movements later seen many hundreds of years later in all the many Hong Quan styles found throughout China by the Qing dynasty. Being military based, the Liubu Jia movments can be done with a straight sword (Jian) or knife (dao- broadsword) or spear and nothing needs to be changed.

Also, like the Shaolin Hong Quan that was later developed by Li Sou and Bai Yufeng, the Da Hong Quan – Big Vast Fist style uses five animal shapes, which are Sheep, Swan (Hong), Tiger, Leopard, and Crane (, (), , , ). Shaolin uses Dragon, Tiger, Crane, Leopard, and Snake. Also, Big Vast Fist uses the concept of Five Elements, in this case being the gold, wood, water, fire, and earth elements. These are associated with the movements of Pi, Beng, Zuan, Pao, and Heng Wu Chui – Splitting, Crushing, Probing (Drilling), Exploding, and Horizontal Five Hammers (, , , , ); almost identical to the Five Elements system later used by the Xing Yi Quan style.

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Any luck getting the choreography of the second side of the Libu Jia?

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;953140]Any luck getting the choreography of the second side of the Libu Jia?[/QUOTE]

There are photos, step by step, in the Da Hong Quan book I mentioned earlier in this thread.

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You mean the one no one can find?

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;953200]You mean the one no one can find?[/QUOTE]

What? You can get this book at Plum Publications and a ton of other places.
Even Amazon China has it.

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Oh!, sorry, I thought it was a different one!

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If anyone can help me get further information on other sets in this Da Hong Quan (Big Vast or Swan Fist) style, I would really appreciate it.
Besides the Liubu Jia set (San Huang Bang), there is also these that I am looking for information on, hopefully some video to see what they look like at least:

Liu Bu Jia
Er Bu Jia
“8”Ba-zi Bu Jia

Chang Da Chui
Si Er Chui
Si San Chui
Si Ba Chui

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[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;948448]You must be a real newbie, that’s for sure. Or else you would clearly be able to see that his ancient Da Hong Quan would wipe any modern Hong Quan player off the map.
And, this is not a “revived” set, it’s been documented and handed down for many hundreds of years before Shaolin boxing even existed.

Anyways, the Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan practiced today is a fragment of what it was originally like when it was first developed, or actually brought to Shaolin really, by Li Sou during the 1400s. The Xiao Hong quan set is just an abbreviation of the version that was taught even about 60 years ago. It is missing the whole first section now and many movements here and there in the set which were once there.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the original version of the Xiao Hong Quan set, the longer more advanced way to do the set, before it was shortened and simplified in modern times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY

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[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;954555]Here’s the original version of the Xiao Hong Quan set, the longer more advanced way to do the set, before it was shortened and simplified in modern times:[/QUOTE]

as i’ve understood, its xiaohongquan’s matching set, often called dahongquan, or laojia (old frame) hongquan as in the video.

this set along with xiaohongquan is what li sou taught at shaolin as matching sets. not that it was a single form, and in modern times was shortened and simplified to create the xiaohongquan set.

the only thing i notice today, is that most people leave out the second section that uses the elbow strikes. with that in, it follows almost exactly the same layout as xiaohongquan, which has the section with “xiexing”, done again later with “panzhou”, and ending with the “san tuizhang” section, just as in this laojia hongquan set.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;954631]as i’ve understood, its xiaohongquan’s matching set, often called dahongquan, or laojia (old frame) hongquan as in the video.

this set along with xiaohongquan is what li sou taught at shaolin as matching sets. not that it was a single form, and in modern times was shortened and simplified to create the xiaohongquan set.

the only thing i notice today, is that most people leave out the second section that uses the elbow strikes. with that in, it follows almost exactly the same layout as xiaohongquan, which has the section with “xiexing”, done again later with “panzhou”, and ending with the “san tuizhang” section, just as in this laojia hongquan set.[/QUOTE]

The idea that there as a matching set is modern day conjecture on the part of some Shaolin monks, as far as I could find out. The Xiao Hong Quan as we know it was formalized in 20th century.

From all I can see in researching Hong Quan, Li Sou practiced a style called Da Hong Quan from Guansu (north western china near Shanxi).
This Lao Da Hong Quan set was a gift to Shaolin when he left the place and went back home. Li Sou was a staff expert as well, I think you can do this set with a staff.

Since he was working with Bai Yu Feng, I think this Lao Da Hong Quan set must have some Five Fist (now called Five Animals but not back then in the Ming Dynasty) influence as well.

40

I thought there was a Xiao Hong, and a Da Hong too, and then there is a different Da Hong from Zhao Kuang Yin’s notes that is 6 roads that is unrelated to the other two?

I seem to remember something about the Son leaving Xiao Hong, and the Father leaving Da Hong? Does that sound familliar to anyone?