Guandong Quan Mystery

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

Hello!
Does anyone know anything about the form Shaolin Guan Dong Quan (Eastern Gate Boxing)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM__IOqodds

When was it created? Who developed it? Where is it from? Is it ancient or modern?

I have heard different things. One of which is that this set came from Zhao Kuang Yin originally. It was supposed to be paired with GuanXi Quan (another set that is a mystery to me)

The problem I have is that I am under the impression this set was lost to Shaolin. So I am confused. Is this set the original ancient set? or a modern one recently made up to replace the original?

Also, if anyone has any info on the ancient form, I could really use some help here.

There is a persistent rummer that the Guan Dong quan, and GuanXi Quan of Zhao Kuang yin (along with a 36 posture set, and a 366 one) are preserved in the Taoist lines at Wudang. I am looking for those 4 sets.

2

Thats an interesting question;

THere are two ancient lineages in Songshan that come from shaolin but have been undisturbed for 360 years and 500 years respectively (Ruan Pai and Mogou pai). Both of them contain both GuanXi and Guandong quan as well as many standard shaolin sets. This would imply that both forms were part of the essential syllabus a long time ago.

The funny thing is in Mogou Pai the Guandong quan has been lost recently but GuanXi quan remains. In Ruan Pai the Guanxi quan is lost but the Guandong remains.

In terms of Dengfeng and the current shaolin, GuanXi quan is lost completely, however Guandong quan remains.

I have seen 3 major variations in the guandong quan in dengfeng. Some versions contain elements of Qixing quan which imply they are surviving parts of the now lost Mogou Guandong quan. The third version looks sort of like the Ruan Pai version of today.

I would then assume that the Guandong and Guanxi fists of shaolin have been lost some time ago, but that they were borrowed in the last say 200 years from the surviving sets in the Mogou and Ruan styles.

I can’t watch the video but I expect it is a version I have seen already.

This post probably creates more questions than it answers…sorry.

Guandong and Guanxi quan are references to chinese history, it is likely these names appear in many styles.

They are most probably part of the HongQuan from which Xiao and Da hong quan are derived.

3

THere are two ancient lineages in Songshan that come from shaolin but have been undisturbed for 360 years and 500 years respectively (Ruan Pai and Mogou pai). Both of them contain both GuanXi and Guandong quan as well as many standard shaolin sets. This would imply that both forms were part of the essential syllabus a long time ago.

I would love to see video of these!! Any chance you might be able to dig some up?

These sets were supposed to have come from Zhao Kuang Yin originally, so they should have been part of the Shaolin curriculum along side of Lao Hong Quan, 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the Han Tong Tonbiquan sets.

4

@RD

There are no existing videos of these forms on the internet. I’ll get around to filming in the villages one day.

In popular shaolin Mythology ZhaoKuangYin learned these sets from JinNaLuoWang. So shaolins Hong Quan is the true legacy of King Luo. (popular myth, not necesserily historically accurate)

Of these the most important is Xiao Hong Quan. Even in these older lineages Xiaohongquan has 4 sets. All of them the same length. These sets are themselves more interesting than all the others of hong quan since they form a complete base. These would be the best thing to focus on to recreate The old technique. The 2,3 and 4th forms of XHQ have been altered much less than the first set (conjecture from comparing lineages).

LaoHongQuan varies a lot between sects. Guandong and GuanXi are borderline extinct…Tongbei is a good bet, but there are so many variations on that name isolating which is the original is very hard, and shaolin Taizu quan is a complicated history. I think XHQ is the best bet to understand the old technique.

Isolating the Song Dynasty Technique is also one of my goals.

5

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1130443]@RD

There are no existing videos of these forms on the internet. I’ll get around to filming in the villages one day.

In popular shaolin Mythology ZhaoKuangYin learned these sets from JinNaLuoWang. So shaolins Hong Quan is the true legacy of King Luo. (popular myth, not necesserily historically accurate)

Of these the most important is Xiao Hong Quan. Even in these older lineages Xiaohongquan has 4 sets. All of them the same length. These sets are themselves more interesting than all the others of hong quan since they form a complete base. These would be the best thing to focus on to recreate The old technique. The 2,3 and 4th forms of XHQ have been altered much less than the first set (conjecture from comparing lineages).

LaoHongQuan varies a lot between sects. Guandong and GuanXi are borderline extinct…Tongbei is a good bet, but there are so many variations on that name isolating which is the original is very hard, and shaolin Taizu quan is a complicated history. I think XHQ is the best bet to understand the old technique.

Isolating the Song Dynasty Technique is also one of my goals.[/QUOTE]

My focus is the stuff that came from Zhao Kuang Yin. There are only a hand full of sets that can be traced to him. Much of that is oral legend only though. These are the sets we know of.

1, Yuan Hou Quan (Ape Monkey) - Zhao was known to do this set (maybe just a collection of lose techniques when he did it though), but Shaolin got it from the same source as he did, rather than from him directly.

  1. Lao Hong Quan - Based on Sal’s research, I am saying that this is the only set he personally passed directly to Shaolin, and has written documentation. It’s based on all the techniques he traded to the Monks for study of thier Rouquan stuff.

Since he was trading his stuff, for thiers, one can only assume he offered his personal favorite and most successful skills. This makes this set, if anything, the representation of his personal art.

  1. 6 Roads Da Hong Quan - This set was made from the notes Zhao Kuang Yin left at Shaolin, hundreds of years after he died. To me, it looks like a big collection of techniques collected from who only knows where.

  2. Guandong & GuanXi - Both are said to have been passed by him personally, but I have never found anything on the mechanism for that (When, where and who he passed it too, what was the circumstances etc..). My best guess is that these sets are ones he created to document the martial arts he picked up from those geographic areas, more than being his personal arts.

With few exceptions, everything else was created by others, and just attributed to him. This is especially true of sets actually called “Tai Tzu”. The famous Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set is an example of this.

The Guandong quan, and GuanXi quan are the big mystery. I have heard rumurs that these sets area around, but have yet to find them. I am hoping this thread shed some light on them.

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No one has any info on the set I posted in the OP? Is it the old, ancient one? or is it a modern recreation?

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There are no sets from Zhao Kuangyin…

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[QUOTE=Howard;1135489]There are no sets from Zhao Kuangyin…[/QUOTE]

Actually, that is not true. Lao Hong Quan is in the Shaolin records as having been passed to Shaolin by Zhao Kuang Yin. Or at the very least, the loose techniques. The form was then created either as a joint venture, or later by the monks. Either way, Lao Hong Quan is his stuff. I have no doubt about that.

There are also the sets of GuanXi Quan, and Guandong Quan that are said to have been passed by him as well. There is also a 36 posture set, and another 366 that are supposedly preserved at Wudang. Those sets may just be oral legend though, but it is a persistent one.

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[QUOTE=Howard;1135489]There are no sets from Zhao Kuangyin…[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

…

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[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1135504]Agreed.

…[/QUOTE]

Then what is Lao Hong Quan?

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;1135685]Then what is Lao Hong Quan?[/QUOTE] a form…(but not created by Zhao Kuangyin!) … and shaolin records are bogus most of the time!..

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[QUOTE=Howard;1135733]a form…(but not created by Zhao Kuangyin!) … and shaolin records are bogus most of the time!..[/QUOTE]

What makes you say that?

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;1130456]My focus is the stuff that came from Zhao Kuang Yin. There are only a hand full of sets that can be traced to him. Much of that is oral legend only though. These are the sets we know of.

1, Yuan Hou Quan (Ape Monkey) - Zhao was known to do this set (maybe just a collection of lose techniques when he did it though), but Shaolin got it from the same source as he did, rather than from him directly.

  1. Lao Hong Quan - Based on Sal’s research, I am saying that this is the only set he personally passed directly to Shaolin, and has written documentation. It’s based on all the techniques he traded to the Monks for study of thier Rouquan stuff.

Since he was trading his stuff, for thiers, one can only assume he offered his personal favorite and most successful skills. This makes this set, if anything, the representation of his personal art.

  1. 6 Roads Da Hong Quan - This set was made from the notes Zhao Kuang Yin left at Shaolin, hundreds of years after he died. To me, it looks like a big collection of techniques collected from who only knows where.

  2. Guandong & GuanXi - Both are said to have been passed by him personally, but I have never found anything on the mechanism for that (When, where and who he passed it too, what was the circumstances etc..). My best guess is that these sets are ones he created to document the martial arts he picked up from those geographic areas, more than being his personal arts.

With few exceptions, everything else was created by others, and just attributed to him. This is especially true of sets actually called “Tai Tzu”. The famous Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set is an example of this.

The Guandong quan, and GuanXi quan are the big mystery. I have heard rumurs that these sets area around, but have yet to find them. I am hoping this thread shed some light on them.[/QUOTE]

I have shown the video you posted of Guandongquan to a fellow Shaolin practitioner who says his teacher does it very differently, although I haven’t seen his version, and don’t personally know these sets.

But to add to your sets taught by Zhao Kuangyin, the Shaolin Encyclopedia includes a set said to have been taught directly by Zhao to Shaolin, called Linglongquan (). Don’t know if you are familiar with this one or not.

The Encyc. also names some weapon forms, such as a spear set called 13 Mingqiang (), not the same as the commonly known Shisanqiang ().

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[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;1130350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM__IOqodds[/QUOTE]

Uhg! That was horrible. I’ve seen several videos from this series; they have no soul to them. Every one of them is performed the exact same way. No real power, stiff, choppy and too fast. No tempo change. It looks like they’re just running through the sets as fast as possible.

15

[QUOTE=LFJ;1152165]I have shown the video you posted of Guandongquan to a fellow Shaolin practitioner who says his teacher does it very differently, although I haven’t seen his version, and don’t personally know these sets.

But to add to your sets taught by Zhao Kuangyin, the Shaolin Encyclopedia includes a set said to have been taught directly by Zhao to Shaolin, called Linglongquan (). Don’t know if you are familiar with this one or not.

The Encyc. also names some weapon forms, such as a spear set called 13 Mingqiang (), not the same as the commonly known Shisanqiang ().[/QUOTE]

Does the encyclopedia show these forms?

I have heard of the 13 famous spear set, and originally did confuse it with the more common Shaolin one. I have never seen it though, and never found anyone who knows is.

I never heard if the Linglongquan, only Lao Hong Quan, which he exchanged for training in the softer skills right before he went into the military. I have the diagram of this, as well as footage of Sal doing the first section. I worked out all 4 roads, but I need to see Sal so he can tune me in and correct me still.

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[QUOTE=Shaolin;1152232]Uhg! That was horrible. I’ve seen several videos from this series; they have no soul to them. Every one of them is performed the exact same way. No real power, stiff, choppy and too fast. No tempo change. It looks like they’re just running through the sets as fast as possible.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the performance is beyond bad. it was the only one I could find to post for comparison though. I don’t know the form, I am trying to determine when this one was created, and if it is a legit part of the Tai Tzu system.

If it’s not a legit part of the Tai Tzu, I an not adding it to my collection because I hate learning new forms. I only know the forms I absolutely have to know.

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;1152252]Yeah, the performance is beyond bad. it was the only one I could find to post for comparison though. I don’t know the form, I am trying to determine when this one was created, and if it is a legit part of the Tai Tzu system.

If it’s not a legit part of the Tai Tzu, I an not adding it to my collection because I hate learning new forms. I only know the forms I absolutely have to know.[/QUOTE]

far as I know this set shown is a recreation made in the Qing Dynasty when the other more well known sets were made. It;s not the old original set.

One version of the 2 sets can be found in the Shanxi Hong Quan system.
another version can be found in Hebei province as part of the Liu He Quan system.
Another version, some say the most accurate version, is part of Wudang Mt. Hong Quan.

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[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;1152267]
Another version, some say the most accurate version, is part of Wudang Mt. Hong Quan.[/QUOTE]

Really ? Wudang Hong Quan is from the greater Xuzhou area in the central plains. such as Feng county and Peixian county - it is likely younger than Liuhe Quan, Yanqing Quan and Shanxi Hong Quan which have same named forms.

The Legend: During the Song dynasty there was some Wudang Mt Daoist lay disciple who was surnamed ‘Hong’ and had apparently been motivated by the stories of Song Taizu’s armies which would be split into East, west etc…then the boxing took attributes along those lines…

The Closer reality: Zhang Dongshu (1856-1933) was fond of MA when he was young and studied with his father Zhang Wanqing (an expert of so-called Wudang Hong Quan) and learnt from many teachers/boxer friends (in those days many boxers around the Yihe tuan and other rebellious activities) … afterwhich he established the Wudang Hongquan system.

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[QUOTE=Howard;1152482]Really ? Wudang Hong Quan is from the greater Xuzhou area in the central plains. such as Feng county and Peixian county - it is likely younger than Liuhe Quan, Yanqing Quan and Shanxi Hong Quan which have same named forms.

The Legend: During the Song dynasty there was some Wudang Mt Daoist lay disciple who was surnamed ‘Hong’ and had apparently been motivated by the stories of Song Taizu’s armies which would be split into East, west etc…then the boxing took attributes along those lines…

The Closer reality: Zhang Dongshu (1856-1933) was fond of MA when he was young and studied with his father Zhang Wanqing (an expert of so-called Wudang Hong Quan) and learnt from many teachers/boxer friends (in those days many boxers around the Yihe tuan and other rebellious activities) … afterwhich he established the Wudang Hongquan system.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that information. Yeah, the emphasis in what I posted was on “SOME say”, ha. As we all well know how it can be in solving Chinese puzzles.

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[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;1152250]Does the encyclopedia show these forms?

I have heard of the 13 famous spear set, and originally did confuse it with the more common Shaolin one. I have never seen it though, and never found anyone who knows is.

I never heard if the Linglongquan, only Lao Hong Quan, which he exchanged for training in the softer skills right before he went into the military.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the encyclopedia shows both. The history bit tells the same story. They were both part of the material ZKY exchanged with Shaolin. But the encyclopedia is also the only reference I know for these.

From the introduction it appears the spear was a whole set, but Linglongquan was just loose techniques. Because it says, in the Linglongquan intro, he taught them the skills he was good at, particularly his Changquan and Linglongquan skills. But then it was Abbot Fuju who arranged the techniques into a 33 posture set named Shaolin Linglongquan.