So I was having a really fun (and mentally exhausting) time piecing together the relationship between the Yang and Chen taiji forms. It was a little exhilarating to realize that the rolling back fist and cross step of Yang is the pound the mortar/stomp of Chen–And probably the same application, at least sometimes… And then I found this video… pretty much aligns perfectly with my interpretation thus far (albeit my forms are slightly different, of course).
Anyway, if you want the pleasure of doing the analysis yourself, don’t watch this, but I think it’s illuminating.
Pretty slick editing! Looks like what one often sees in group tai chi when there’s no prima-donna trying to force everyone to do it the same way and some of the people had previously learned it a different way. Also, if an instructor doesn’t understand the kung fu it was derived from, some of us will put the kung fu it back into it regardless of the tai chi style.
Here is a comparison of sequences of Chen vs Yang in about the first half of their form: [LIST=1]
[B]Commencing Form [/B]- both styles start with this.
Yang's[B] Grasp the Sparrow’s Tail [/B]is the simplification of three of Chen's sequences:
[B]Jingang Pounds Mortar -[/B] Yang would step forward with the left foot but skip Zhen Jiao (Shocking Foot, the stomp you see).
[B]Lazily Tying Robe -[/B] Yang would step to the right here, but they would skip Lie Jin, which is the ending of Chen's Lazily Tying the Robe.
[B]Six Sealing Four Closing [/B][B]-[/B] Yang would instead directly flow to [B]Lu[/B], [B]Ji[/B], and [B]An [/B]just like Chen's Six Sealing Four Closing.
[B]Single Whip[/B] - Both Yang and Chen proceed to Single Whip
[B]White Crane Spreads Wings[/B] - Chen and Yang transition to White Crane Spreads Wings
[B]Brush Knee and Push [/B]- This is Chen's [B]Oblique Form[/B], but Chen does not end with a "Push" but instead ends with what might appear like a reversed Single Whip. With the oblique stance, perhaps this is Chen's version of what Yang may call "Diagonal Single Whip".
Chen proceeds to [B]First Closing. [/B]The transition from First Close to their next move is what resembles Yang's "Play the Pipa".
[B]Play the Pipa[/B] + ([B]Brush Knee and Push/Twist Step[/B]) - This is Chen's [B]Wade Forward Twist Step [/B]+ [B]Oblique Form[/B] (Their version of "Brush Knee")
[B]Step Forward, Parry, Block, and Punch [/B]- Chen's version is called [B]Covered Hand Bicep Punch[/B] which punches at a 45-degree angle instead of the front.
[B]Apparent Closing [/B]- Yang proceeds to Apparent Closing before Cross Hands, whereas Chen would just go to Cross Hands directly.
However, the Chinese for Apparent Closing is "Rú [B]fēng [/B]shì [B]bì[/B] (如[B]封[/B]似[B]闭[/B])" which sounds like an adjustment of Chen's "Liù [B]fēng [/B]sì [B]bì [/B](六[B]封[/B]四[B]闭[/B])". Not just in name, but Yang's Apparent Closing actually looks like it came from Chen's Six Sealing Four Closing.The Chinese variant of the names also hints at the relationship here.
[B]Cross Hands [/B]- Both go to Cross Hands.
Chen would instead go through a series of three sequences that Yang does not have:
[B]Shelter Body Fist[/B]
[B]Lean & Fold the Back [/B]
[B]Green Dragon Out of the Water [/B]
The removal of these three sequences is no coincidence, as all three of these sequences involve wrapping energies with two fists. This entire genre is stripped out throughout Yang's form, where it would have been present in Chen's form.
[B]Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain[/B] - This is where Yang and Chen would push with both hands, but Chen calls this "[B]Two Hands Push[/B]". So here we have another interesting Chinese name situation:
Yang's Chinese name for [B]Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain[/B] is "[B]Bào [/B]hǔ guī [B]shān[/B]", but again, this name seems to come from Chen's [B]Bào [/B]tóu tuī [B]shān[/B]; it's the same pattern as well. But for Chen, it's translated as "[B]Cover Head Push Mountain[/B]". For Yang, it's a variant of "Grasp the Sparrow's Tail" whereas for Chen, it's a variant of [B]Six Sealing Four Closing. [/B]
Chen would proceed to [B]Three Palm Changes[/B] which Yang does not have.
[B]Fist Under Elbow[/B] - both proceed to Fist Under Elbow
[B]Step Back and Repulse Monkey (3 times) [/B]- Chen would call this [B]Whirling Upper Arms[/B] which also involves stepping back and being done 3 times. But again, we have an interesting Chinese nam situation.
Yang's [B]Repulse Monkey[/B] is called "[B]Dào [/B]niǎn hóu" whereas Chen's [B]Whirling Upper Arms[/B] is called "[B]Dào [/B]juǎn hong".
At this point, you kind of have to wonder if there has been some Chinese dialect issue going on here. Also, keep in mind that in ancient China, most people were illiterate. They couldn't read or write.
Yang proceeds with [B]Diagonal Flying [/B]and [B]Raise Hands and Step Forward.[/B] Interestingly, Chen's "[B]Flying Diagonal[/B]" does not exist in its first form, but instead, it exists in its second form, using the same name as "Diagonal Flying". Meanwhile, Chen proceeds with two sequences that Yang does not have:
[B]Step Back Press Elbow[/B]
[B]Middle plate [/B]
[B]White Crane Spreads Wings[/B] - Chen and Yang transition to White Crane Spreads Wings.
Yang proceeds with [B]Left Brush Knee and Push[/B], which Chen proceeds as well with its counterpart of [B]Oblique Form[/B].
Yang proceeds with [B]Needle at Sea Bottom[/B] which Chen does not have.
Both Yang and Chen would proceed to [B]Fan/Flash Through Back[/B], but Chen's Flash Through Back pretty much encompasses Yang's next move, which is [B]Turn Body, Chop with Fist[/B]. However, after the turnaround, Chen would just stop at chopping with the edge of an open palm and doesn't end with a fist here.
Both Yang and Chen do their respective punch: [B]Step Forward, Parry, Block, and Punch,[/B] and [B]Covered Hand Bicep Punch[/B].
Yang proceeds with [B]Step Forward, Grasp the Bird’s Tail, [/B]while Chen proceeds with [B]Big Six Sealing Four Closing[/B],
[B]Cloud Hands [/B]- Both Chen and Yang proceed with Cloud Hands.
Yang and Chen proceed to [B]Gāo Tàn Mǎ [/B]with some translate as: [B]High Pat on Horse[/B]/[B]High mounted archer[/B][B].[/B]
Yang and Chen proceed with their kicks:[B]Right/Left Separation Kick[/B] and[B] Wipe Right/Left Foot[/B]
[/LIST] Skipping ahead because this is time-consuming to write out:
Yang's [B]Snake Creeps Down[/B] is what Chen calls [B]Falling Split[/B], but they use a fist instead of piercing fingers. Both Yang and Chen would proceed with [B]Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg[/B].
Yang has [B]Turn Body, White Snake Darts Tongue[/B], but in Chen Style, White Snake Darts Tongue is actually in their second form, not their first form. Although the action does exist in their[B] Flash Through Back[/B].
Both Yang and Chen have the following consecutive sequences near the end:
[LIST]
[B]Step Forward, Seven Stars[/B]
[B]Step Back, Ride the Tiger[/B]
[B]Turn Body[/B], [B]Lotus Kick/Turn body Double Swinging Lotus[/B]
[B]Bend Bow, Shoot Tiger[/B]/[B]Cannons Over Head[/B]
[LIST]
[B]Cannons Over Head [/B]is most certainly the traditional/original name for this sequence because this is the exact name found in Qi Jiguang's 32 Postures from 16th century.
Great comparison. The moves stipped out throughout the Yang form implied the Chen form came first. Could the two fists have been added? Maybe there was a long line at the bar so the Chens came back double-fisted and decided to add some moves, haha
Yes, this is my own original work. I wasn’t even trying my best… as you can see, midway through, I got lazy and thought: “Ah… screw it… let me skip to the end where there’s more interesting things to say.”
I think the Chinese names of the sequences are really quite fascinating because they lead me to wonder:
Did Yang Luchan learn Er Lu? Because there are a few moves (Diagonal Flying and White Snake Spits Tongue) that exist only in Er Lu.
This also makes it funny to me when people say that Chen’s Er Lu is not real Taijiquan and that it’s just a Shaolin Form unrelated to the first form.
But they don’t seem to realize that something like Yang’s White Snake Spits Tongue is from Chen’s Er Lu. Chen does not have that name in its first form.
I don’t know about Er Lu, but I’ve suspected Yang already had a solid longfist background before he learned the Chen style. Just makes more sense to me.
It’s probably all related…the more I learn the more things start to look the same.
This is great because there’s no bias for either Yang or Chen, right? This is a historical record before either styles were even formulated.
There are 32 “Verses”, and I will go through some of them.
The very first verse is:
[B]Lazily Pulling Back the Robe[/B] - Oh wow... this is Chen's 3rd sequence called [B]Lǎn [/B]zhā yī. In Yang Style, they call it:[B] Lǎn[/B] què wěi ([B]Grasp the Sparrow's Tail[/B]). So this is pretty much proof that "Lazily Tying/Pulling the Robe" is the original name.
[B]Second Verse[/B] is:
[B]Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg [/B]- Oh wow... that should be very familiar for both styles.
[B]Third Verse [/B]is:
[B]Reaching out to the Horse [/B]- This is Yang and Chen's Gao Tanma ("High Pat the Horse").
[B]Fifth Verse -[/B] does not have a familiar name, but look at the picture. This is Taijiquan's kick. For Chen, this would be called [B]Ca Jiao (Wipe Foot)[/B]. For Yang, this might be called the [B]Separation Kick.[/B]
Verse 17 - Punch to the Crotch - Sounds familiar? Both Yang and Chen have a sequence called exactly this.
Just to breeze through, you will find White Crane/Goose Spreads Wing and Single Whip. Exact names. It’s almost incredible how we even managed to preserve these names after all this time.
But to Chen Family Taijiquan has way more overlap with Qi Jiguang’s manual than Yang Style.
For instance, Verses 29 and 31 involve Phoenix Elbow, but these are towards the end of Chen’s Er Lu. It’s literally called Phoenix Elbow for Chen Style.
Verse 25 is Chen’s Sparrow Ground Dragon
Verse 30 is Chen’s Cannons Over Head, so if you accept that Yang’s Bend Bow, Shoot Tiger is their version of Cannons Over Head, we now know that Chen’s name is more loyal to the "original "name.
Before Chen Family Taijiquan was even a thing, the Chen Family natively had what’s known as Hongtong Tongbeiquan(from the Hongtong County) in addition to other martial art methods they had, such as Pao Chui.
The term “Long Fist” sort of just denotes any martial art that has a long, extended range fighting style.
Thanks for the link to Qi Jiguang’s Manual. Those drawings are very interesting. As someone that learned kung fu before tai chi its great to see all those low stances!
Yes, there’s a trend where Taijiquan practitioners adopt higher and shorter stances over time.
Chen Family Taijiquan is well-known for having low-stance practice.
Most modern Yang Style Taijiquan has shorter and higher stances, BUT originally, it looks like Chen Style’s legs as shown here (Yang Chengfu on the right):
Rarely do we see today’s Yang Style practitioners adopt the stance we see here. Yang Style used to be a more bitter practice to the degree that someone like Yang Banhou (?) ran away from home. Whether this was true or not, the story is premised on the accepted idea that the practice was extremely bitter.
And then Wu Style’s stance is generally even higher and shorter than modern Yang Style.
And Wu (Hao) Style is arguably even shorter and higher than that.
Along with this trend, the leg foundation gets weaker and weaker.
“Tai Chi” becomes less and less bitter to such an extreme degree that the talking points that people make today have made a 180-degree flip.
Now, we hear today’s practitioners saying that eating bitter is wrong. They say Tai Chi should be relaxed and uses no muscles and be “natural”.
So originally, Taijiquan was a gongfu (hard work + time) practice, but today’s “Tai Chi” is the antithesis of gongfu because they are philosophically opposed to “hard work”.
Hard work is “unnatural”. But the whole point of Gongfu is to practice the unnatural until it becomes natural; it is to develop something which one did not possess beforehand. If a Yang Family member was eating bitter to the degree that they wanted to run away, that is a sign that it was “unnatural” and that they were practicing gongfu.
This was my first time really looking at a comparison between Yang and Chen styles. I learned that it did not make any sense to create a combined form. The internal body mechanics appear to be so different.
To the contrary, I learned it makes sense to combine the best of both forms. They each have internal body mechanics that are better at one point or another. Often one style has dropped moves over time because people forget moves, even masters. Most of my tai chi instructors have learned from a single source and just copy them as exactly as possible, even with little quirks or differences picked up from their master’s widely different anatomy. If their master had never learned kung fu or had a big ego and/or following then its even more likely they have been bullied into doing a form in some unique way.
Ya know… I have noticed a pattern when it comes to people learning from different teachers.
And that pattern is that their habits are often stuck with whatever they learned from their first teacher.
I suppose it goes to show how powerful first impressions are.
There is a teacher who learned Bajiquan and later learned Taijiquan. His Taijiquan looks like Bajiquan, and the Taijiquan method is vacant. When he shows applications for Taijiquan forms, he is just showing Bajiquan applications.
When Chen villagers learned from Chen Zhaokui, they just reverted to the habits from their first teacher, Chen Zhaopi. Their “Xinjia” is ultimately practiced through the habits of “Laojia”.
So many times, I hear people optimistically frame it: “He MASTERED all of these styles and combined them into one!”
When in reality, it’s most often the case of: They went back to whatever they were most comfortable in, which is usually the first thing they learned.
So many might think: “Wow! This great master combined Bajiquan and Taijiquan into one thing!”
When in actuality, their Taijiquan sucks and is interpreted through the lens of Bajiquan because that’s the first art they learned.
This relates to the famous philosophical parable that originates from Zen Buddhism, “Empty your cup”.
Basically, people’s “cup” is often so full from what they learned from their first teacher that they struggle to learn other things.
However, it is also often the case that many teachers don’t have much tea to put in your cup to begin with, which is why so many Taijiquan practitioners travel around the world to attend workshops, but they hardly even get crumbs.
For many, their “cup” is actually pretty empty… and it just contains little droplets from different sources of tea. Those poor guys are often STARVED for something real but can’t get any.
So there are a few common problems: [LIST=1]
Someone's "Cup" is too full, and they struggle to learn something new.
Someone's "Cup" is empty, but all they get are droplets and crumbs.
[/LIST] I am not surprised when people think different styles/lineages of arts are the same because the more you dilute two different drinks, the more they taste like water.
The more diluted any two styles of Taijiquan are, the more similar they seem. The more saturated two different drinks are, the more different they taste.
So if I practice something very saturated, everything else seems so different. If I practice something diluted, the other diluted arts look similar to me.
It’s kind of a mean analogy because nobody wants their practice to be called “diluted”, but that’s just how I see it.
Yeah, “first is the worst” applies to a lot of tai chi. I see it with people that learned karate before kung fu. For many, its impossible for them to unlearn the karate, so all their kung fu turns out to be many bursts of linear movements in mid-course correction.
Another aspect the watering down of tai chi is that the instructor was too eager to start teaching tai chi before they really understood it. I see this all the time with new-ager types that want to be everybody’s guru, or with empty-nested women that no longer have kids to boss around and treat their student like children. They often teach it for free, diluting the income of other tai chi instructors that have spent a lifetime mastering the art.
If the combined forms are created with the intention of incorporating the best internal body mechanics, move by move, I am all for it. I do understand that transmission errors to arise. But creating a form for aesthetic, ease, or to satisfy ego, leaves much to be desired. Just take a look at what happened with Mainland China Wushu. I think it really sucks.
True aesthetic has form follow function. The internal body mechanics are beautiful to look at.
Some of the Wushu you mention goes beyond sucking into the total CRINGE realm. Everyday day when flipping through Red Note I am tricked by some beauty with a jian wearing a traditional costume and expect to see a traditional form, only to find her whipping it around like a saber. I feel your pain!
