I know that Yang Shao Hou had his small frame Tai chi and also knew the large frame, does anyone know of him practicing two large frames Old Yang Style Tai Chi? Does anyone know if he practiced a large frame of Tai Chi that was only for the “indoor students”?
This might sting, but-
“Old Yang” was CHEN STYLE. If there were any additional Large Frame forms that YSH practiced other than what his father taught him, it was Chen’s Lao Jia, as YSH indeed studied under Chen Qing Ping alongside Wu Yu Xiang. It’s interesting to note that “Small Frame” in either Yang or Wu(Hao) styles popped up after they trained with Chen Qing Ping who was the purveyor of Chens Small Frame (Xiao Jia/Shiao Jar) at the time.
as far as i heard
shaolinche- i dont know if yang shao hao studied some kind of large frame.
as far as I heard, yang lu chan studied chen and later met Wu Yu
xiang who found the ‘Tai Chi Classics’ in salt shop. the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing.
‘the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods’ -
So what exactly are the conflicts - please enlighten us
yang lu chan
chen methods and taiji classics conflicts: i dont know what he felt was needed to be changed and why. its not my job to mind read with the dead.
If you know what the yang and chen forms look like you can see the differences yourself.
i would say palm, stances, breathing, soft verses hard, circles, use of hip and waist, coiling of back and spine.
Re: as far as i heard
Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing.
Yeah, right. Do you honestly think YLC, as CLOSE as he was to the Chen Family, would have even been ALLOWED to do that? Come on man! “Old Yang” seems to have five or six forms out there that aren’t exactly similar. (Erle M comes to mind) None of them have verifiable lineages. More likely these forms are Wu Hao Small frame heavily influenced by some in the Yang Cheng Fu crowd addicted to the romanticism of having a “Rare” and “Old” form, and, are quite simply MAKING THIS STUFF UP to fit that romanticism. “Cross-Pollination” of styles creates this kind of confusion as well.
There’s no doubt, hovever, that the Yang family kept the real deal away from the Manchus, hence some of the super-soft crap floating around out there. Yang Cheng Fu was NOT all soft, and the Yang family also admits that he demonstrated moves from the CHEN Pao Chui form to his students to fine tune thier Fa Jing. Just something to think about…
QuaiJohnCain,
Is “Old Yang” the Guang Ping Yang Style? Guang Ping is said to be the connection between Chen and Modern Yang.
No, Guang Ping is Guang Ping, as defined by Wang Jao Yu. The Chen influence is undeniable. But still, Wang made up his own form, hence the distinction from the Yang family.
Originally posted by brody
[B]QuaiJohnCain,
Is “Old Yang” the Guang Ping Yang Style? Guang Ping is said to be the connection between Chen and Modern Yang.
Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
No, Guang Ping is Guang Ping, as defined by Wang Jao Yu. The Chen influence is undeniable. But still, Wang made up his own form, hence the distinction from the Yang family.
In the Yang Tai Chi community, do the majority feel or believe that Yang Lu-Chan never create the Guang Ping style?
chen/yang connection
Basically Guang ping is claimed to be what yang pan hao was teaching in guang ping perfecture before teaching elsewhere in china. earls m’s Old Yang form is another form with several combined yang/chen movements like guang ping before it was finalized by yang chen fu.
Yang Lu chan rounded off many of the chen moves and you see this when watching guang ping or earl m’s old yang forms.
Ma,
Stop ducking the question. Back up your comment about chen taichi conflicting with Tai Chi Classics.
shrub
was i dodging? i gave you my honest answer (and i dont have time while at work to get in a heavy conversation). look at wu yu xiang and yang lu chans forms…they dont look nearly anything like chen style of taiji because those guys changed it due to their own interpretation of the classics, the political situations at the time, and other variables. as for yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did.
lets look at these classic sayings-
“in any action the body should be light, agile and all the parts connected like pearls on a thread.” - well chen uses explosive movements so there is violation #1. the older yang forms have some explosive moves, currently the new yang form is 100% soft.
“in any action is held erect without leaning in any direction” - chen has alot of leaning. there are several movements of chen that have leaning in them. two examples are fling body and walk obliquely.
these could be some of the things yang may have been looking at…but like i said…i dont know what he was actually thinking cause i am not a mind reader, nor speak with the dead.
there was scholar at one time names Wu Tunan who felt that Chen style wasnt even taiji at all, but that is not what i am saying.
i learned laojia yi lu from chen zhen lei and erlu (pao chui) from chen xiaowang. this is after many years of practicing both Yang style form 2 of Fu zhong Wens disciples in virginia. I also have plenty of exposure of guang ping from a student of kou lien ying in va.
here is a form on the internet that has yang/chen flavor. it s EARL!!
http://www.taichiamerica.com/oldyangstyle.htm
ok let the bashing begin…
Great!! You’ve just lost all credibility by bringing up Earl.
Now I know where you are coming from. Case closed.
“yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did.”
That assumes a whole lot. Yang Luchan was an indentured servant and it is on record that his children and I am not sure but it may have been up through Yang Chengfu that were illiterate. As in they could not read and write…not that uncommon.
So, any interaction with Taijiquan Theory and the “Classics” would have come from their students. While he may well have been quite talented, scholarly is not a word I would associate with someone that has to have the classics told to them.
Originally posted by brody
In the Yang Tai Chi community, do the majority feel or believe that Yang Lu-Chan never create the Guang Ping style?
Well, I’m not in the Yang crowd, but, no, Guang Ping is a culmination of what YBH taught Wang Jao Yu, and Wang’s own input combined. If Wang did not put changes of his own into it, he probably would have just kept calling it Yang style, now wouldn’t he?
BRODY- thanks for the link. If you look at the lineage page on that site there’s a pic of the 3rd generation bearer, Kuo Lien Ying, look at that posture, that’s about as CHEN as it gets!
Re: chen/yang connection
Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
Basically Guang ping is claimed to be what yang pan hao was teaching in guang ping perfecture before teaching elsewhere in china.
Bull. The real changes to Yang style came with Yang Cheng Fu. YBH never “changed” anything per se beyond not going so deep (due to Imperial robes), and hiding the spiral energy from the Manchus ( the “rounding off”). He probably took the Fa Jings out too. Chen forms can be performed that way and still be called Chen, duh. But when it comes to YBH’s disciples that WERE given the real martial aspects (as opposed to what got shown to the Manchus) BIG, outward spirals were trained and then brought inside, just like, ahem, CHEN style. Lots of evidence for this in Guang Ping and Wu Hao training curriculums. Wu Meng Xia’s (a disciple of YBH) writings tell of this as well.
As for the “finalizations” Yang Cheng Fu made, he REALLY kept stuff hidden, as EVERYONE wanted to learn from him, but he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things, so there’s no wonder he made the forms that he did (all soft, even tempo, etc) but his real DISCIPLES got extra training- from the CHEN system. The Yang family ADMITS this.
earls m’s Old Yang form is another form with several combined yang/chen movements like guang ping before it was finalized by yang chen fu.
Yang Lu chan rounded off many of the chen moves and you see this when watching guang ping or earl m’s old yang forms. [/B]
Re: shrub
Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
was i dodging? i gave you my honest answer (and i dont have time while at work to get in a heavy conversation). look at wu yu xiang and yang lu chans forms…they dont look nearly anything like chen style of taiji because those guys changed it due to their own interpretation of the classics,
No, the “changes” were to hide the real stuff from Manchus and deal with Imperial robes. It’s sad to me that so many want to practice these WATERED DOWN ways of training, rather that doing a curriculum like what YBH really did do, which is CHEN training exercises and curriculums. Hard practice. Fa Jing. Big outward circles compacting down to little ones versus practicing the hidden spirals from the beginning. SPARRING. All of that was removed to make things easy for the Imperials, whom did not recieve MARTIAL training curriculums. THAT was for DISCIPLES.
the political situations at the time, and other variables. as for yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did.
Classics schmastics, YLC couldn’t read. He TRAINED.
lets look at these classic sayings-
“in any action the body should be light, agile and all the parts connected like pearls on a thread.” - well chen uses explosive movements so there is violation #1. the older yang forms have some explosive moves, currently the new yang form is 100% soft.
I’m surprised you say you are a student of Chen Xiaowang yet would say something like this. Fa Jing is any given jin performed really, really fast. The prerequisite for this is what you just quoted above! Take a video of him doing a Fa-Jing, and use a good video player to slow it down… You’ll find that his form is EXACTLY the same as when he would do the movement slowly, without explosiveness…
“in any action is held erect without leaning in any direction” - chen has alot of leaning. there are several movements of chen that have leaning in them. two examples are fling body and walk obliquely.
UUhh, Wu styles lean like hell… The classics are saying not to overextend your weight on one foot or the other, this does NOT require the spine to be plumb with the ground…
here is a form on the internet that has yang/chen flavor. it s EARL!!
http://www.taichiamerica.com/oldyangstyle.htm
ok let the bashing begin… [/B]
I’ve seen that clip. It’s interesting, sure. Erle can FIGHT, I’ll give him that. He’s even pretty good at applications. But his “Hao Chuan” is very Yang Cheng Fu flavor, and some of those FaJings look pretty dubious to be considered correct from either a Chen or Yang perspective.
reply
qiaunjohncain said_ “he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things”
1949 was the communist take over. yang chen fu died 1936. get your facts straight.
shrub- i told you where i was coming from and i am open minded to different aspects of yang even if its earl. so credibility is lost with you. so while you hide in your pitiful negative nihilistic world of ignorance hiding behind a name. i am an open and honest. the reason why i rarely come to chat rooms is disagreeables like you.
yang lu chan may have been illiterate but was friends with Wu yu xiang who may have explained classics to him. therefore with opened mindedness and research their taiji progressed and evolved. somethig that rarely happens with people on this board- taiji progression.
matt
“yang lu chan may have been illiterate but was friends with Wu yu xiang who may have explained classics to him. therefore with opened mindedness and research their taiji progressed and evolved. somethig that rarely happens with people on this board- taiji progression.”
It would seem unlikely that a person such as Yang Luchan would have gleaned his knowledge and skill from anything but practice.
While there may have been ideas from the “Classics” that once dropped into a person of skill’s ears would lead to certain apporaches being taken, this is more the empirical result based approach as opposed to a scholarly philosophical approach.
Wu WAS a scholar to some degree. However, the salt shop version of his “Classics” is pretty far fetched and has been dealt with in a few books and articles. Much more likely is that Wu wrote the stuff himself - transcribing his own thoughts, those of his teachers, and in typical traditional fashion, not taking credit for it since that would be simply not done.
I would also doubt that Yang depended overly much on any explanation of “Classics” simply out of Confucian order…“If much of your understanding comes from books, it is better not to read…” so the paraphrased saying translates.
Re: reply
Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
[B]qiaunjohncain said_ “he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things”
1949 was the communist take over. yang chen fu died 1936. get your facts straight.
OOPS, you right…
My whine on that note is that YCF bothered to cozy up to govenment authority, motivating him to move the bulk of the goods in his art to the “Indoor” arena. Sad, but still, not as bad as what the PRC government is doing to the Chinese Martial Arts these days.