Ma,
You wouldn’t have made such irresponsible and uncorroborated statements if you were open-minded and knowledgeable about Tai Chi. Your description of the Chen movements was incorrect. As I’ve said before, case closed… and as Earl would say: goodday.
Ma,
Just to show you how wrong you are, here is an excerpt from the English version of the book ‘Chen Style Taijiquan’ widely available in N. America (see Tai Chi Magazine):
In p. 155, Walk Obliquely, Chen Xiaowang clearly stated
"Points to remember:
The accompanying pictures clearly show him erect and not bending as you stated. In the same book, Feng Zhiqiang shows the application of the move. He was also doing it ERECT. In fact, I’ve checked all my videos and books from Ma Hong, Chen Zhenglei etc. and from all my Chen lessons here and in China … NO ONE ever teach you to bend.
Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about or else you are trying to distort the facts to suit your own prejudice.
the only person here making any kind of intellectual reply here and i am getting anything out of… is GLW.
my original statement was:
“as far as I heard, yang lu chan studied chen and later met Wu Yu
xiang who found the ‘Tai Chi Classics’ in salt shop. the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing.”
notice i said as far as i “heard”. its not from a book i read nor did i assume it to be factual, but after analysis it could be a valid theory as to why yang changed his chen taiji.
maybe yang did gleam all of his knowledge from practice alone. your point glw, seems reasonable.
shrub- i was taught to bend forward on walk obliquely from two chen teachers. one is a chen zhen lei disciple and hosts chen zhen lei and the other is a disciple of chen xiao wang. i know the book your talking about and chen xiao wang does do it verticle. however that form is not laojia either…its a short form he created not from laojia but xiao or xin jia.
nice rebuttle but case open.
Wu, Sun, and Wu are more recent modifications . According to your logic, they should be even more “genuine” than Yang… otherwise why would they change it ?
"i was taught to bend forward on walk obliquely from two chen teachers. one is a chen zhen lei disciple and hosts chen zhen lei and the other is a disciple of chen xiao wang. "
Hey, I was taught by these same 2 teachers. They told me that they used to have this guy who couldn’t stay upright but kept leaning in their class. They concluded that this guy was beyond hope as he was leaning too much to the Yang and not balanced by the Yin.
I was also taught secrets by Wudang priests - the same ones that transmitted all their secrets to Earl. They told me I am right and you are wrong.
Case closed.
shrub
maybe we arent talking about the same chen posture then-
the one i am talking about is where after the white crane spreads wings right and left arm circle and then one goes into a brush knee like motion with a left hook hand. THIS IS THE POSTURE I WAS MENTIONING THAT WHEN THE PRACTITIONER SWEEPS AROUND LEFT KNEE THEY BEND FORWARD WHILE THE RIGHT HAND SWEEPS BY RIGHT EAR THEN THE PRACTITIONER FINALLY ENDS UP IN A ERECT GONG BU WITH LEFT HOOK HAND AND RIGHT PALM LIKE A BRUSH KNEE. the walking part of Walk obliquely is done erect…so i agree with you on that part.- case still open…
SHRUG SAID “I was also taught secrets by Wudang priests - the same ones that transmitted all their secrets to Earl. They told me I am right and you are wrong.”
about earl…some people who study the Chen Pan Ling’s form (a combination of chen, yang and wu jian chien taijiquan) say Earls old yang form and Chen Pan Lings form are nearly identicle. So either earl copied it from chen Pan ling people, earls teacher Chang Yiu-Chun copied it from someone, or maybe there is another explaination. at one time earl did go to wudang shan to learn more about taijiquan. its great that he still considers himself a student of the art and keeps refining and improving himself.
as for right and wrong…in essence who is really right and who is really wrong?..it doesnt matter…that is a dualistic way of thinking…what matters is finding truth and knowledge to make the individual a better martial artist.
Case Closed!!
88 two man tai chi san shou form
i learned that form yang jwing ming…i guess thats not legit either.
what was the purpose in changing from chen style to yang style? Why didn’t Yang Luchan just do tai chi the exact same way as his teacher?
Is there anything in the lu chan or shou hou forms that is not found in chen or yang chenfu style?
imperial yang taiji
I got the imperial yang taijiquan vcd’s in the mail this week (2 different teachers) and after watching them. it looks nothing like chen at all. guang ping looks more like chen that this imperial taiji that the yangs taught in beijing when they first came. so whatever they taught in yongnian county guang ping perfecture is much different that when they later went to beijing.
Yang Lu chan changing chen theory
i showed the videoes of the Imperial yang taiji to two of my teachers. the chinese instructor told me that when imperial yang came out into the public eye it shocked the taiji community.
as for my other teacher- we talked about why yang lu chan may have changed his form from chen to whatever- he mentioned that there possibly was some wudang influence. he mentioned that yang lu chan had changed the form 5 times before going to beijing. after beijing he learned of the “classics” from wu yeuh xiang two years later.
he mentioned that there is a good book called “Tai chi ancestors” to read that has good info.
“i learned that form yang jwing ming…i guess thats not legit either.”
Oh man. Yang’s a White Crane guy. His taiji is…he’s a white crane guy.
taiji has many animal styles
Its not that hard to know a few styles and know how to seperate and combine the different energies and techniques. If we all did forms the same we would be no better than robots. Dr. Yang has a clear understanding of taiji and his style is very unique.
I didnt learn from Dr Yang but one of his Taiji Students who practices only Dr. Yang’s and Yang Zhen Dou’s Taiji cirriculum.
“Its not that hard to know a few styles and know how to seperate and combine the different energies and techniques.”
Nonsense. Taiji has a particular shenfa and it is different entirely from Baihe.
“If we all did forms the same we would be no better than robots. Dr. Yang has a clear understanding of taiji and his style is very unique.”
I don’t believe he does and his book (and my personal observance) seems to bear that out.
chen pan lings book
I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art.
In particular he says shaolin is a good one to study. I think the legendary sage Chang San Feng studied Shaolin before going to Wudang eh? The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?
“I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art.”
Well that’s just complete horseshuit. Tell that to the Chen’s face. Or to any top Yang guy, or Wu.
“In particular he says shaolin is a good one to study.”
Well he’s wrong. As I said, different body method entirely. No wonder you have “wushu” site.
“I think the legendary sage Chang San Feng studied Shaolin before going to Wudang eh?”
Fa fooks sake, have you read nothing about real history?
“The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?”
No. Yang Luchan went to Chen village. Jeez read a FAQ or two.
“I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art.”
oh, that is depressing…
here is an important educational point to consider when judging taijiquan practitioners and teachers; If someone claims tai chi is ineffective unless some other martial art is trained, that is a personal admission of their own utter lack of training, skill, understanding, and honesty regarding taijiquan.
If one cannot be effective in it that is a sign of one’s own poor practice, or poor instruction. It is not a revelation about the true nature of taijiquan LOL!!!
In other words, if Yang jwing Ming said that, he is clearly telling you that HE does not understand or have any skill in taijiquan so he requires the services of another martial art to make it effective… great…
“The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?”
Wrong. Yang Lu Chan; 3 trips-18 years in Chen Family Creek, training Chen fist.
history
some scholars believe even yang lu chan studied longfist before chen. he had already heard of chen famous taijiquan as a martial artist and decided to learn there to supplement his already technical knowledge.
did you know chen zhen lei is one of the top 10 wushu coaches in china! they even do wushu basic in chen village!! so stfu!
dr. yang never said any of that . dont put words in his or my mouth. the book was written by chen pan ling.
Cheng Zheng Lei is a top wushu coach in China…
What wushu? do you mean changquan??? surely not…
wushu means “war arts”
wushu means “war arts” is is classified into several major categories. modern and traditional, internal and external, forms and combat.
chen zhen lei teaches chen taijiquan not longfist. however they practice wushu basics like stretching, stances, stretch kicks, jumps, ect. that are common in most modern wushu classes.
do you know why?
the reasoning is to develope a strong kung fu body that most people doing taiji dont have. it makes a better taiji player than one who does not do those things.