thanks man, i was suspecting the same thing. this is what i hate about chinese kung fu, there is a lot of misinformation
i still think that qijiguang’s 32 postures is written gold, it gives a good insight into what was considered good quan fa
chen family changing technique names to qijiguang’s book is possible, stilll it doesnt rule out some can be techniques changed over time, some times movements can change so much its hard to believe
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;973774]heheh, well, the way it’s taught nowadays from Shaolin is missing some movements and postures, and doesn’t show the soft / hard duality.
But, yes, it is a great set and you can learn a lot from it. I’ve been doing it for decades and still love it.
You can read all about the internal version of this set if Gene publishes the article I submitted to him a few weeks ago about this set and it’s history and attributes.[/QUOTE]
Reply]
At some point, you should really get together with Gene, and show him your version of this set. I am sure he’d appreciate it considering he loves this set so much.
I know a good 14 versions of it now. The two I learned from you are by far my favorites.
The other 12 sort of all got jumbled, and I end up mixing and matching them. I never do it the same way twice when I reveiew them.
Looking for The Dragons of Shanghai
Qi Jiguang’s chapter ‘Fist Classic’ only attributes one technique to Song Taizu.
[INDENT]Patting Horse was passed down from Taizu all postures can be lowered and changed, charging forward to attack withdrawing retreating to shun, able to change a weak position to a strong one. The extreme perfect and best of short fist.[/INDENT]
Again, in his ‘Chiu Liu Maneuver’ it mentions ‘pat on horse,’
[INDENT]”Switching and changing evenly from pat on horse, striking people and taking their life.” [/INDENT]
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;973756]
(from the book, The Dragons of Shanghai).
[/QUOTE]
Couldn’t find it on Amazon, where could I find this book?
Taizu’s nephew went to battle against the Khitan, sadly lost, but his invention of the Jade Maiden afterwards makes for interesting history.
the soft / hard duality
Funny you should mention that, Sal. I was toying with the idea of doing a piece that fleshes some of the fundamental taiji principles out of that very form. I see plenty of internal methods within it, but perhaps I’m projecting. I tend to do that with a lot of forms. It’s a result of having so many teachers, especially with the Songshan Shaolin forms. Sometimes I fill gaps with other material. That being said, I’ve only learned one version of TZQ, and that’s from my current teacher Yan Fei.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;974018]Funny you should mention that, Sal. I was toying with the idea of doing a piece that fleshes some of the fundamental taiji principles out of that very form. I see plenty of internal methods within it, but perhaps I’m projecting. I tend to do that with a lot of forms. It’s a result of having so many teachers, especially with the Songshan Shaolin forms. Sometimes I fill gaps with other material. That being said, I’ve only learned one version of TZQ, and that’s from my current teacher Yan Fei.[/QUOTE]
Cool, then you should read the article about that set that I emailed you a few weeks ago, it details the internal aspects of the set. You can use it to help you with your article.
(and if you print my article, it would make a cool TZ Chang Quan themed issue!)
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;973853]
Couldn’t find it on Amazon, where could I find this book?
[/QUOTE]
That book is not available for sale. You can only get it on inter-library loans, with permission from the publisher. I was able to read it that way only.
It’s a beautiful large sized format book about the history of the Shanghai Henan Shaolin school that moved to NYC and then Canada.
When I later learned Rou Quan though, everything in the internal version of TZ Chang Quan totally made a million times more sense.
Then, Chen and other TJQ made more sense, and so did Henan Tongbei Quan too.
TZ Chang Quan is a very important set, and clearly is the Grand Ancestor of Shaolin martial arts.
BUT< one thing that seems to be lost to modern practitioners, the fact that it is called Chang Quan makes people think that it is a “Long Fist” set like the Shandong martial arts of Cha and Hua Quan.
But in this case Chang meant FLOWING (like HONG too), like a long river.
The set is done like a river flowing suddenly one way and then suddenly another way.
In fact, it’s fighting applications are to close the gap “using long to go short”.
It is considered a “Duan Da”, close strike, martial art in the old Shaolin teachings about this set.
It represents what the Song era martial arts were like, especially the Wen Family martial art (such as Ba Shan Fan and so on), they were close range attacks using long movements to bridge first and then close in.
Royal Dragon can attest how I did this very thing in applications on him. He was on the floor very fast and smoothly, from a far bridge touch to a near takedown finish.
To be honest, I’ve only skimmed it Sal
I’ll give it a harder look soon for sure, once I clear some things on the current issue in production. While a TZQ themed-issue is appealing to me in a scholarly sense, it’s way too secular for the newsstands. But I might run your piece and mine in a shotgun parallel fashion. I’ve done that before and it can produce some interesting results. We’ll see. I’ll let you more via email, when I get to the next submission review.
Here’s an illustration of a connection between TZ Chang Quan and TJQ:
The “signature” movement of Zhao Kuangyin was the Qi Shou Rising Hands, which in TJQ is called Ward Off or Peng. In the TZ Chang Quan set, it is the second posture, right after “Dredging Ocean for the Moon” (1st posture).
In this video, of TJQ Peng / Ward Off application, it is IDENTICAL to TZ Chang Quan Lifting Hands application (and to Rou Quan’s Luohan 13 Gong - first posture “Old Man Splits Wood”):
Here’s one of the best explanations I’ve seen that matches how the opening movements of Taizu Chang Quan operate (and links it to how internal martial arts operate):
step back
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;974860]Here’s one of the best explanations I’ve seen that matches how the opening movements of Taizu Chang Quan operate (and links it to how internal martial arts operate):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA[/QUOTE]
Hello Sal;
I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the “enemy” before “settling in” to the posture.
However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.
Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening “leading” him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice…
My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.
Still, well done!
[QUOTE=Skip J.;975093]Hello Sal;
I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the “enemy” before “settling in” to the posture.
However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.
Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening “leading” him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice…
My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.
Still, well done![/QUOTE]
Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.
He doesn’t advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).
He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.
If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:
http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html
Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he “gets” it from his insights and experience?
roll back
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;975102]Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.
He doesn’t advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).
He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.
If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:
http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html
Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he “gets” it from his insights and experience?[/QUOTE]
Ah well, maybe 15% of the movements I have learned so far incorporate a roll back as an intregal part. In watching him on his website - thanks for the link by the way, he’s a cool instructor I must say - anyway; he is much more comfortable with letting the opponent slide by, and then starting his movement.
After his study of all 3 major internal “arts” and coming from the fighting experience of his previous external systems.. I would say he has intuited from each a contribution to the particular area he concentrates in. I noticed 3 or 4 different movements besides the roll back where he emphasizes an unusual movement. In someone less well trained in many systems, you mite say he would pick and chose what he liked and dropped the rest. But in his case, kinda like Bruce Lee, he advocates cutting away what doesn’t work in the real world, and teaches the rest as worthwhile knowing.
For instance, in the pushing video, he gets up very close - more like an external attack style; but then he pushes with his entire body weight, a very taiji-like principle.
Sal, you mite try this thread over on the taijiquan forum. Those long-term guys over there know their stuff.
hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge
[QUOTE=bawang;975140]hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge[/QUOTE]
Yes, he’s using KF technique.
It’s in Shuai Jiao, it’s in Fanzi Quan, it’s in Shaolin, it’s in Tongbei Quan, etc., etc.
The trick is to be like a bull fighter, lead the attacker on towards you and then never let the “bull” make contact as it is forced to pass you out of its range, from the side or rear you can attack them with no counterattack.
That’s how a bull fighter stays alive against a raging bull.
Shaolin basic body movement
Hi Sal,
In the early 80’s I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on Shaolin’s basics of evading armed attackers. Evading is both core and an advance part of
Shaolin.
r.
[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);975842]Hi Sal,
In the early 80’s I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on the basics evading in Shaolin in relation to fighting armed attackers. Evading as both core and advance part of
Shaolin.
r.[/QUOTE]
Cool, I might have that issue.
Read your Dragons of Shanghai book by the way. Fantastic book!
I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins).
Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading.
Starting with Western Boxing really helps people understand the concept and move their bodies correctly in preparation for Chinese MA.
Of course the way I teach Western Boxing is much more internal oriented.
Started with boxing as in high school and later had lessons with Frank Allan (he wanted to say that he coached a relative of Tony Canzonieri, the 1930s / 40s world champion). he also teaches Bagua, XY, and TJQ.
Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting.
Shuai Jiao was originally based on Gou Ti, which was a type of bull fighting.
Opponents wore horned helmets, it didn’t take long for evasive fightwork and so on to develop from that! Do or die! From this Shuai Jiao developed, which has a strong influence on Shaolin’s development.
Shuai Jiao (wasn’t called that back then) was a major component of ancient martial arts.
Shaolin Luohan Quan has much in common with Shuai Jiao. Once my Shuai Jiao teacher and I went posture by posture in some Luohan Quan sets and did the Shuai Jiao equivalent to them. They match very well.
Bagua of course is firmly rooted in Shuai Jiao and Shaolin Luohan.
evading
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;975889]…I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins). Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading…
…Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting…[/QUOTE]
In this months issue of Gene’s excellent print magazine, Master Helen Liang has a wonderful article on the “Taiji 13 Postures”. While all of them are in there - Lu - roll-back - is well explained. In the opening pages she says …“lead the coming force into emptiness” and “use four ounces to neutralize one thousand pounds”… very much what Mr. Ralston is demonstrating…
On the third page under Lu - Roll Back she says " Lu involves using the hands to roll back and neutralize the coming force or make your opponent lose balance. However, when applying the technique of Lu, it is not enough to use only the jin of your arms and waist, as this may only work on beginners. To make it fully effective, the coordination of footwork is required. When you are applying Lu on the left side, your left leg must step back ( houtui) and your body must turn slightly to the left ( zuogu). With a right-hand-side Lu, your right leg needs to step beck while your body turns to the right ( youpan)."
Taizu Chan Quan
I have seen the article of Taizu Chan Quan, and my head if stuffed with amazing info.
Shi Heng Jun teatches Taizu Chan Quan in Frence I believe, is there maybe because on you tube Shi Heng Jun shows it half, a performence by one of his french studens on you tube ?
I am a fan of Shi Heng Jun`s performence of the Taizu.
When it says Long Fist boxing, or long range, does that mean maybe many moves with stretched arms ?
And for the long range, maybe it is usefull agains a weapon ?
Eugene
Eugene, learn to use the search engine
A search on ‘taizu’ coughs up nearly 50 threads. And I’m sure there are more. It’s a highly discussed topic here. I’m merging your post with this thread, which is one of our more recent ones and has a lot of video links.
One of these days, I should merge more of the taizu threads together…