Tai Chi wins in MMA

Originally posted by omarthefish
[B]Nevermind…

What’s funny is I never bothered with a web search before since I had already discussed the 5 steps with my teacher. I say “funny” because I’ve watched Shooter bring up “the 5 stpes” ..*ooooohhhh…:eek: * time and again and each time people get annoyed or tease him or make up wierd theories about what they are and a simple google search for “taiji 5 steps” turned up good explanations immediately…several of them.

Google is your friend.

Now how they apply to combat and how you train and implement them is another story.:wink: [/B]

I’m glad you took the effort to talk with your teacher about them. But did that talk get into the philisophical espects? And more importantly, google is only your freind if you actually read past the first few lines of info it gives.

this is an exert from embracethemoon.com :

[I]"To complicate the issue there is very little available material exploring this subject. Most books provide at best a cursory explanation or a simple list. The main difficulty arises from questions related to function. Just what are these five things anyway? Are they postures? Are they stances? Are they positions? Are they techniques? Are they sensibilities related to the “five elements?” And just what are the “five elements?”

The Wu Bu relate directly to the fundamental operation of the legs, hips and waist, particularly in relationship to the Ba Men (Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Tsai, Lieh, Jou, Kou). Yang Family classics address this directly:
“The division of the steps contains the concept of the five phases and allows us to control the eight directions.” “Our body contains the eight trigrams, and our feet step out the five phases.”

Compare this to text from the Taijiquan Classic:
“The root is in the feet, Jin is generated from the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the hands and fingers. From the feet to the legs to the waist must be integrated with one unified Qi. When moving forward or backward, you can then catch the opportunity and gain the superior position.”

The legwork in Taijiquan is distinctly different from that of other martial arts styles. The approach to mobility in Tai Chi is designed to give support to the all important tsan-nien jing (sticking-adhereing energy). Without studying and integrating the specific qualities of the Wu Bu, it is virtually impossible to develop accurate or functional sticking energy. The revered text, the Song of Sparring, is the oldest literary source to directly describe the requirements and purpose of the Wu Bu in Taijiquan. It states:
“In advance, retreat, gaze left, look right and central equilibrium, you must stick, connect, adhere, and follow, distinguishing full and empty. The hands and feet follow each other, and the waist and legs act in unison.” “Drawing the opponent in so that his energy lands on nothing is a marvelous technique.”
Since the legs and waist are so obviously important, study of the Wu Bu should be one of a serious Tai Chi student’s major and critical focuses."[/I]

Take special note of this part: “In advance, retreat, gaze left, look right and central equilibrium, you must stick, connect, adhere, and follow, distinguishing full and empty. The hands and feet follow each other, and the waist and legs act in unison.”

How one does this without mental preperation is beyond me. I say this because the primary goal of forms and drills is to prepare the mind to use the techniques. To memorize the technique is simple. To use it requires one to know and understand it. Remember, the mind is a truely amazing thing, but useless if you don’t involve it in every aspect of your training. You may be able to spar. But that is not to say you will be able to use what you have learned while sparring unless your mind understands how to use it. This is why many people’s sparring “doesn’t look like what-ever-style”. They do train it well, but in a fight or even a sparring situation, the mind looses controll and the reflexes take over. Train well and you will do well.

Train your mind to take control, and you will do better, because your mind has much more to offer than “duck-jab-jab-hook-DAMN… I just got nailed and lost my consentration!” (admit it, we all spar like that at least from time to time.:wink: )

Could the 5 Steps that are discussed here be in reference to Ting, Hua, Yin, Na, Fa?

Ting = Listen

Hua = disolve opponents force

Yin = disrupt (like destroying opponent’s root)

Na = control

Fa = strike or throw

No I don’t think so. Not in my understanding anyway.

The theory that I have from my style (Yang Family):

Five elements
Jin - Advancing
Tui - Stepping back
Gu - Being attentive
Pan - Gazing
Ding - Bering still

which in turn can be divided into internal and external aspects:
External
Jin - advancing
Tui - retreating
Gu - attentive to your left
Pan - keeping an eye to the right
Ding - being rooted and stable

Internal
Jin - touching and entering
Tui - linking
Gu - adhering
Pan - Sui (following and yielding)
Ding - not resiting or losing contact

This is the source of the five elements and the basis of agility.

the 5 steps correspond directly with the 5 elements.

The 5 elements are arranged in creative/destructive and closeness/fearfulness cycles. Their arrangements provide a model for understanding tjq as it pertains to the relationships we share with others.

The creative/destructive cycle represents the physical/spacial/positional aspects of relationships and interactions.

The closeness/fearfulness cycle represents the mind/intent and perceptual aspects of the same relationships and interactions.

It’s important to not get bogged down in minute details or singlular/linear thinking in how one step/element relates to another. It’s a synergy of all the steps/elements acting within the shared experience.

Metal=Advance
Wood=Retreat
Water=Look-left
Fire=Gaze-right
Earth=Central Equilibrium

Positional/Spacial/Physical;
Metal creates water. Water creates wood. Wood creates fire. Fire creates earth. Earth creates metal.
Metal destroys wood. Wood destroys earth. Earth destroys water. Water destroys fire. Fire destroys metal.

Mental/Emotional/Perceptual;
Fire is close to wood. Wood is close to water. Water is close to metal. Metal is close to earth. Earth is close to fire.
Fire fears water. Water fears earth. Earth fears wood. Wood fears metal. Metal fears fire.

I guess there can be lots of 5 step concepts. I thought we had ruled out the Wu Xing (5 elements) as what we were discussing.

Maybe Ting, Hua, Yin, Na, Fa isn’t what you’re after here, but it is a valid gongfu concept. Not strictly Taiji though. You have heard of that, right Kaitain?

Originally posted by Becca
[B]I’m glad you took the effort to talk with your teacher about them. But did that talk get into the philisophical espects?

Yes. Actually, it came up only incidentally as we were discussing the 5 elements as they relate to baguazhang. I don’t study Taijiquan. But as my teacher mentione the 5 elements in the way most Chinese habitually do:

“jin, mu, shui, huo, tu…”

..he also did a little “hail mary” in the air with his finger and it suddenly clicked why that particular order when it doesn’t match with the cycle of creation OR destruction.

In English:

“metal, wood, water, fire, earth.” …and he semiconcously gestured with his finger up, down, left, right and center…"

And that’s how I learned about the 5 steps…

And more importantly, google is only your freind if you actually read past the first few lines of info it gives.

Agreed. But the first hit I got was this one:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/powers13.htm

Which I think has an excellent introduction to the subject if you click on the link at the top of the page where it says:

“5 steps”

What? People expect to post a question on a board and just get spoon fed EVERYTHING?

We utilize “Element Steps” in our system as well, particularly the one where the front foot stays and you sweep around sort of like a Matador before he sticks the bull … this was inspired my grandmaster Lui’s Flying Dragon pole system.

Concerning elements in general though, I don’t get too caught up because I think people over do it with “water puts out fire,” ect., etc., etc. Really? Because fire just evaporatade the hel! out of the water I left on the stove this morning.

Any element can over come any other depending on who’s doing it and how. Position and structure.

Hmmm…

Perchance was the fire acting directly on metal, which then acted in its turn on water, Efist?:wink:

Delibandit - sure I have, and I believe they’re perfectly valid concepts that should be trained in any system.

Chang, you’re exactly right:)

Kaitain(UK)
“Fourthly - the ball in water analogy. Think on this as well - the ball is effectively storing the energy you push into it, so when you release it, that force is released. The ball will also try and circle around your linear force to get back to the surface. However hard you push the ball, it’ll always do the same thing. That’s just Peng.”

I haven’t gone very deep into Taiji but I don’t get this explanation at all. Seems way off base to me (I think you missed the ‘boat’ on this one). The ball stores nothing. It’s just an intermediary between two opposing forces and only seeks the least difficult path to equilibrium. It neither resists nor forces change but yields to dissipate the forces exerted on it.

It could be said that the water displaced around the ball is storing the energy and since it too aspires to equilibrium will release that energy back at the first opportunity. To me then, peng would be a natural force that maintains unity and equilibrium in the universe (physics). To relate it to fighting I would say that a vicious attack would return that energy back to the attacker via the easiest route in order to neutralize the situation. Specific techniques to accomplish this are left to the individual. You can use Boxing, Muy Thai, or Kung Fu, whichever you prefer.

Ok, my head hurts now from all that deep thinking. :smiley:

OK then - imagine a large inflatable ball that you’re trying to push into the ground or a wall. The ball gives way to a point but always returns to it’s original shape, doesnt matter how hard or fast you push into it. I would say that standing post training and other such tools are used to develop the resilience that increases the practitioners ability to receive this force without becoming brittle (bursting, if you want to stick with the ball).

The ball on water analogy is to try and get people to understand the sensation they are after. In pure physics I understand that the ball retains no energy, but when done in martial terms the body compresses and stores the incoming energy. Probably my second analogy is better :slight_smile: It’s an image rather than a physics based explanation.

I wasn’t finished writing. I wanted to go into how the cycles are applied to the way sparring and ring-fighting are structured and practiced. I just ran out of time this morning.

But since “we’ve ruled out the 5 elements as what we were disussing”, nevermind.

Originally posted by delibandit
Most of the people on this board only understand power, speed, and strength.
Most non-fighters greatly underestimate the role of strength, power, speed, and conditioning.

and most so called “fighters” greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man’s, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that’s what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree. If the average person with average strength, speed and power can’t make it work then it is not a effective movement, IMO.

James

Originally posted by Shooter
[B]I wasn’t finished writing. I wanted to go into how the cycles are applied to the way sparring and ring-fighting are structured and practiced. I just ran out of time this morning.

But since “we’ve ruled out the 5 elements as what we were disussing”, nevermind. [/B]

puts hands over his ears

I can’t hear you…I can’t hear you…I can’t hear you…

Originally posted by sihing
and most so called “fighters” greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man’s, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that’s what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree.
Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most non-fighters think that that combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling do not emphasize technique, timing, perception, and precision just as much, if not more so, as they do conditioning.

I’d be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.

I never said that the arts listed above don’t require skill and don’t have the skill attributes I mentioned in my post. But some arts require more of the physical attributes like speed, strength etc to make them effective. Listen, if I had just enough strength to lift my arm up from the side of my body and that’s it, no fighting art would work for me. Most people have a average level of strength, speed and stamina. When some of them join a particular MA school, the first requirement of that school is to make them stronger, faster and more fit, physical attribute based MA.

In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man’s speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal. Is this system perfect? No, but it works better for the average person than getting stronger and faster and fitter, because there are always people out there that have more of these things than you and I.

James

Originally posted by sihing
I’d be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.

and yet you find time for weapons, chi sau, umpteen strikes, forms, dummy work, iron palm, qigong…

In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man’s speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal.

those things should be taught in ANY school…