Re: Tai Chi wins in MMA
apparently, this Sami Berik guy’s record is 3-3.
http://fcfighter.brinkster.net/fighter.asp?FighterID=245013
anybody know anything about this ulitmate combat promotion? where’s it based and how big is it?
Originally posted by sihing
[B]and most so called “fighters” greatly underestimate proper timing, postioning and perception skills, and many other skill attributes, as a way to cut another man’s, strength, speed and power in half. All of these things are requirements to succeed in self defence, but some arts rely on them more because that’s what they are based on, strength, speed and power, and not everyone has these things to a high degree. If the average person with average strength, speed and power can’t make it work then it is not a effective movement, IMO.
James [/B]
Didn’t you state elsewhere that you’ve only had formal experience with one style, and that one is WC? If so, then how can you possibly know if this is true?
Originally posted by SevenStar
Didn’t you state elsewhere that you’ve only had formal experience with one style, and that one is WC? If so, then how can you possibly know if this is true?
I’m formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them, plus I’ve met others from these styles, compared notes and sparred during the learning years. My teacher also has direct experience with many different arts, as well as fellow students and previous students of mine. We all agree that certain arts rely on physical attributes more than others. This does not mean these arts don’t use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.
James
Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
Originally posted by sihing
I’d be much better too if I had the 24hrs in one day needed to train everything that you suggest.
Originally posted response: Sevenstar
and yet you find time for weapons, chi sau, umpteen strikes, forms, dummy work, iron palm, qigong…
Originally posted by sihing:
In other MA schools the people learn how to coordinate their natural strengths, learn faster methods of movement, and learn how to cut another man’s speed in half by making their opponents use longer movements to reach them and teaches one to watch certain points on their opponents bodies that telegraph what they are going to do, allowing one to pick up and read the intentions of the opponents punch, kick, or whatever faster than normal.
Originally posted response: Sevenstar
those things should be taught in ANY school…
The weapons/forms of WC are quite simplified compared to other arts. For the Butterfly Swords, once you learn the hands of WC you already know most of what you have to know to fight with them, you just have to get used to handling them correctly, but since most people do not carry Butterfly Swords on their person’s, we substitute sticks for the swords also. The Dragon pole (we use a 6’ staff), is very simple to learn and doesn’t require much training to become skilled with them. SLT, CK and BG are simple to do and don’t require much time to perform.
Chi-sao is done allot in the earlier stages of training, but like any skill attribute, once you have the skill in you it is much easier maintaining it than it was gaining it.
Don’t practice much Chi-kung anymore, but should, and I don’t particpate in much iron palm training. Wooden dummy is done maybe 4X a week for about 15min a time, not much time there also.
As for the things I mentioned in my post, I don’t know what most MA schools are teaching as it would be almost impossible to know exactly, but from what I see through videos and publc MA mags most do not use as far as I can see methods to cut a man’s speed in half, use one’s natural strengths and faster method’s of movement. I have seen some arts that use some of these methods but none as much as the WC I practice IMO.
James
Originally posted by sihing
I’m formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them
studied them how?
This does not mean these arts don’t use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does.
I really suggest you spend time with some grapplers.
Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.
In thailand, the avg thai boxer is lightweight…grapplers are quite adept at dealing with large guys as well. That’s nothing specialized to WC. Do you have any examples of why/how WC is more efficient?
a slightly over 200 lb minotauro defeated 350 lb bob sapp.
155lb. genki sudo defeated 350 lb. butterbean.
I’ve beaten guys in tournaments that have outweighed me by 85-100 lbs.
170 lb royce defeated 250 lb. dan severn.
fighting smart is something that should be emphasized in all styles.
Originally posted by sihing
[B]The weapons/forms of WC are quite simplified compared to other arts. For the Butterfly Swords, once you learn the hands of WC you already know most of what you have to know to fight with them, you just have to get used to handling them correctly, but since most people do not carry Butterfly Swords on their person’s, we substitute sticks for the swords also. The Dragon pole (we use a 6’ staff), is very simple to learn and doesn’t require much training to become skilled with them. SLT, CK and BG are simple to do and don’t require much time to perform.
Chi-sao is done allot in the earlier stages of training, but like any skill attribute, once you have the skill in you it is much easier maintaining it than it was gaining it.
Don’t practice much Chi-kung anymore, but should, and I don’t particpate in much iron palm training. Wooden dummy is done maybe 4X a week for about 15min a time, not much time there also. [/b]
but those things are still trained, regardless. While you are training those things, a thai boxer (for example) is cocentraining on his same core striking techniques repeatedly. The beauty of it is that the things that knife mentioned are all integrated into the the skills training. I don’t have to do any thing extra for iron body - conditioning comes with sparring and pad work, which are directly related to my skill development. increased stamina will come with sparring, which is, as stated, directly related to my skill development. Timing, precision, angling, etc. are all drilled through pads and sparring. It’s all integrated.
As for the things I mentioned in my post, I don’t know what most MA schools are teaching as it would be almost impossible to know exactly, but from what I see through videos and publc MA mags most do not use as far as I can see methods to cut a man’s speed in half, use one’s natural strengths and faster method’s of movement. I have seen some arts that use some of these methods but none as much as the WC I practice IMO.
feinting, stalking, drawing, angling, etc. Are definitely trained in other styles.
Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
Originally posted by sihing
“I’m formally trained in Wing Chun, but studied the other arts to learn how to apply my Wing Chun against them”
Sevenstar: studied them how?
Sihing:I leaned about them by any means possible, real people contact, texts, video instruction, etc…
"This does not mean these arts don’t use the same skills sets I mentioned earlier, just that IMO they do not use them as much as say Wing Chun does.:
Sevenstar:I really suggest you spend time with some grapplers.
Sihing: Would love to but have no time. Have seen great skill from some grapplers, and have seen sloppy skill from some grapplers, same in the WC I have investigated, not all apply it the same way, but on a technical level I believe the Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion.
Wing Chun is known for its ability to teach small people how to defend successfully against larger people, so how is this possible if the larger people are physically more dominate than they are? Because the skill sets of WC are at a higher level of efficiency and effectiveness IMO.
Sevenstar:In Thailand, the avg thai boxer is lightweight…grapplers are quite adept at dealing with large guys as well. That’s nothing specialized to WC. Do you have any examples of why/how WC is more efficient?
Sihing: In Thailand the avg Thai Boxers start real young and is fighting to get out of the poor house, basically for survival, and trains hard to do this. If one cannot afford the same time commitment and intensity as the well-trained Thai Boxer from Thailand, can they still use the art effectively? Probably, but not to the same effectiveness if the person trained the same way in WC IMO. Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident. I have a great respect for the Gracie’s ever since I studied some of the videos and viewed the documentary “Choke” featuring Rickson Gracie. That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground as a this allows less mobility against multiple opponents, but the art of GJJ would add great effectiveness to any fighter from whatever system they study.
I could go all day on the reason’s why WC is very efficient, but I won’t, its bedtime. Basically, at least in the WC I study, we use no wasted movements, and try to position our self’s in very advantageous ways in relationship to our opponents whenever possible. The training system allows one to absorb everything quickly, and supreme effectiveness in everything we do in relation to our self-protection is of paramount importance. We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.
Sevenstar:a slightly over 200 lb minotauro defeated 350 lb bob sapp.
Sevenstar:155lb. genki sudo defeated 350 lb. butterbean.
Sevenstar:I’ve beaten guys in tournaments that have outweighed me by 85-100 lbs.
Sevenstar:170 lb royce defeated 250 lb. dan severn.
Sihing: All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don’t work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.
Sevenstar:fighting smart is something that should be emphasized in all styles.
Sihing: Yes I agree, but from the new students that have recently joined my kwoon from other MA systems (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, Hapkido), this is not the case..
James
Originally posted by sihing
Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.
in the beginning, possibly. That’s natural for anyone. As we (I’m one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won’t make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it.
That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground
Don’t look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It’s not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be.
We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.
it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though.
I could go all day on the reason’s why WC is very efficient
I don’t disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO.
All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don’t work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.
There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don’t have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.
sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.
Most average people cannot train like those mentioned above.
yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are.
Originally posted by SevenStar
quote:
Originally posted by sihing
Large guys rely too much on their natural size advantage so they have a false sense of security in some situations, therefore they get overconfident.
Respnse:Sevenstar
in the beginning, possibly. That’s natural for anyone. As we (I’m one of those big guys, so I have a lot of experience in this area) progess, we learn to relax and learn not to rely on our size and strength as that will stagnate learning. IME, it won’t make you overconfident for long. Get beat by enough little guys and that will change. Size and strength is indeed an advantage though, and you will learn when and how to use it.
Sihing: If the big guy’s can do this then they will definetly be more dangerous. We have a guy in class that’s 6’2" 280ish and very fast for his size (he’s a naturally big guy, built like a brick sh!t house, not body building type). Because he has the WC skills to average degree (he still tends to rely on his size & strength advantage at times) he is very dangerous. He can punch around 5 to 6 times in a second and has very good kicks. I would recommend to him that he concentrate on his chi-sao to soften up a bit and refine his skills to a higher degree. The only advantage I have over him (I’m almost 6’2", and 185lbs) is my skill is higher, my understanding of the art is higher and I’m faster. If the two of us tango’d I would definetly have to take him out quick, using more dirty tactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters) and get in close to finish him off. My reference to big guys was a “in general” type of post, as I would think most guys that are big feel they have no need to train in MA, due to their size and strength advantage over most.
Sihing
“That art is in my mind like WC for the ground, very sophisticated and effective, except I do not believe it is sound strategy to fight on the ground”
response Sevenstar:
“Don’t look at it that way - If we are both in a bar fight and we both get taken to the ground and mounted, who is more likely to be able to get up most quickly and efficiently - you with no grappling training, or me? Who is likely better at defending against a solid takedown? It’s not necessarily about finishing the fight on the ground, but about being able to handle yourself wherever you may be.”
Sihing: That’s true, but only if one has not trained antigrappling technique’s, to which we do train in our kwoon. From standing to kneeling to on your side to on your back. And of course when the opportunity arises to get back up again we would do so.
Sihing
“We have not had our heads stuck in the ground for decades, and are aware of the others arts out there today, and what they have to offer also.”
response Sevenstar:
it sounds like you have an incomplete picture though.
Sihing:
It may be incomplete, as I would probably learn lots if I actually decided to take up those arts, just like those that judge WC and think they know about it (like most JKD guys), they could learn lots if they absorbed all of it. But at least I have a knowledge of them and what the basic strategy and set up is. If I was totally in the closet about other arts besides WC then you would have one up on me, but I’ve tried to be open minded about things all my MA career.
sihing
“I could go all day on the reason’s why WC is very efficient”
respnse:SEvenstar
I don’t disagree. but to think that as far as efficiency goes the wc is leaps and bounds above everything else is incorrect, IMO.
Sihing:
I never said WC was leaps and bounds above everything else, its very subtle, but in my opinion more efficient and effective.
sihing
“All of the above people that won are pros, and very skilled athletes, exceptions to the rule. Every MA has people like this in them, including yourself. WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don’t work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.”
resnse: Sevenstar
There is no physical pre-req. the muay thai roundhouse, for example is powerful due to the mechanics of it. You don’t have to be big and strong to deliver a solid one.
Sihing: True, you don’t have to be big and strong for a powerful round kick, but the fact that the kick has to be “powerful” to be effective is my point. My WC punch is not designed to knock one out with 1 punch, but multiple punches in 1 second. After practice the individual punches become more powerful, but we do not believe in the method’s of putting all power in one decisive blow, too much commitment there.
Sevenstar:
sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.
Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro’s, average people have lives that don’t revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don’t rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.
James
Originally posted by sihing
WC works for the masses, whereas most MA don’t work as effectively due to their physical attribute requirements and training requirements. Most average people cannot train like thosementioned above. WC was specifically designed to require less training time to produce effective fighters.
If that was true, there would be all kinds of WC guys all over the place kicking ass and taking names. As it is, they are few and far between…and the ones that are good have usually crosstrained pretty significantly in something else.
Sevenstar:
sport fighting produces fighters quickly as well.
Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro’s, average people have lives that don’t revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don’t rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.
Training a max of 4 hrs a week, I’d conservatively estimate my skills increased 10x in my first six months of “sport style” training. Has nothing to do with my (laughable) athletic talent, and everything to do with a training style that demands results.
Lots of us part timers train sport-style, and get fine results.
Originally posted by sihing
Sihing: True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro’s, average people have lives that don’t revolve around MA training.
Randy Couture and other Team Quest members train around 12-16 hours per week. They are elite pro fighters. Your claim that sportfighters are effective because they train 8 hours a day is false. Sportfighters are effective because of their training methodology.
Originally posted by sihing
[B] but on a technical level I believe the Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion.
We have a guy in class that’s 6’2" 280ish and very fast for his size…
The only advantage I have over him (I’m almost 6’2", and 185lbs) is my skill is higher, my understanding of the art is higher and I’m faster…
If the two of us tango’d I would definetly have to take him out quick, using more dirtytactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters)[/B]
If what you said in your first paragraph was true, you shouldn’t have to use the “dirty tricks” to take him out.
Originally posted by sihing
True, you don’t have to be big and strong for a powerful round kick, but the fact that the kick has to be “powerful” to be effective is my point. My WC punch is not designed to knock one out with 1 punch, but multiple punches in 1 second. After practice the individual punches become more powerful, but we do not believe in the method’s of putting all power in one decisive blow, too much commitment there.
It’s not about one decisive blow. That would be stupid, in the sense that you are fooling yourself if you think you can rely on that. Can someone be dropped with one technique? Sure. But we know that realistically, it will take more than one. The phrase “punches in bunches” pretty much illustrates the proper mindset.
True, because they have the time available to train 8hrs a day, they are pro’s, average people have lives that don’t revolve around MA training. So they must learn techniques that work in their own right and don’t rely on the individuals attributes to a high degree.
okay, what about non-pros? of my three judo coaches, one is a three time national champ, the other was ranked third in the world and currently cleans up in bjj, and the other is a master of sport in sambo. He competes internationally and was at the judo world championships in judo this year.
What about amateur boxers - golden gloves champs? What about KFM’s own merryprankster? WD’s mma coach is something like 31 - 3. Surely you don’t think that ALL sport fighters train 8 hours a day…
Like FD said, it’s more about the training methods than anything.
Originally posted by sihing
I have a great respect for the Gracie’s ever since I studied some of the videos and viewed the documentary “Choke” featuring Rickson Gracie. That art is in my mind like WC for the ground,
BJJ and WC are light years apart. BJJ is based on reality and has been developed from real world trial and error. WC is based mostly on theory.
“WC is based mostly on theory.” (KF)
BULL5HIT !
If you want to make a case against WC and BJJ being similar - that’s fine.
But that’s also as far as it goes. There’s been countless cases of real world trial and error proving the effectiveness of Wing Chun- going back several hundred years - right up to and including everyday in the here and now.
And as to this…
“If the two of us tango’d I would definitely have to take him out quick, using more dirtytactics (finger jabs, neck hits, ball busters)” (sihing)
“If what you said in your first paragraph was true, you shouldn’t have to use the “dirty tricks” to take him out.” (KF)
What the two of you are calling dirty tricks is, was, and always shall be part of the whole Wing Chun game. There are many moves (and variations of moves)…that are designed to do nothing else other than attack the eyes - for example. The same for temple, carotid, and windpipe shots. Many variations on all of the above.
Now if your attacks on Wing Chun’s effectiveness is because of some posts like this…(which happens to be that “first paragragh” you were alluding to)…
“but on a technical level I believe that Wing Chun utilizes skill sets more than most any of the MA out there, but this is just my opinion.” (sihing)
Well…then…I got to cut your “over-eager to prove him wrong attitude” some slack - because I think James (sihing) is really deluding himself with these kinds of assertions. And I’ve told him that on the Wing Chun forum many times.
There’s a certain science behind Wing Chun that clearly gives it an advantage in the standup, infight, close-quarter striking/kicking range than most other arts…but that’s also as far as it goes.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“WC is based mostly on theory.” (KF)
BULL5HIT ! [/B]
Really now?. There is footage of BJJ challenge matches going all the way back to the 30’s. You can go to any MMA site and see videos of BJJ being used. The evidence of the pressure testing of BJJ is all over the place.
But where is the evidence for this “real world” pressure testing of WC? The only things I’ve ever seen are a few videos of WC fighters NOT USING Wing Chun.
The evidence exists within countless streetfight encounters that were witnessed and reported on by many people through the years…challenge matches that were witnessed between WC and other arts…(such as by William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee. Yuan Kay San is another. Yip Man is another).
I myself have a student who won a full contact tournmament about ten years ago against some karate blackbelts…there have been some Chinese WC people who defeated some Thai boxers during organized events in the Orient back in the day - (Ernie’s instructor Gary Lam is one)… Here in the States there’s been Duncan Leung who beat alot of people both on the streets and behind dojo doors here in NYC back in the 70’s and 80’s…
You and I have debated this many times - and while I agree that a large percentage of today’s WC schools don’t train for reality-fighting the way they should (and was always the tradition before the latest period of time)…but the fact that you don’t see WC in Pride or UFC…
that doesn’t mean the art is ineffective. I know of some BJJ black belts, for example…who have walked into a certain WC school in New Jersey and were pounded into the ground…never took the instructor down even once.
Your standard is always “show me the scorecard within organized events”…which is a legitimate way of measuring things - but my point is…it’s not the only way.
Well, one of the things that makes the organized fight so much more compelling as evidence than the anecdotal street-fight is the fact that it’s been witnessed, reported on, and recorded. The street-fight hasn’t. A sanctioned MMA event attempts to match people of similar size and skill level, something that never has taken place in a street encounter. If I witnessed a fight between a muscular 300 pound taiji fighter against a 100 pound BJJ guy, I wouldn’t necessarily think that means a thing. Wouldn’t you RATHER have your art tested in open competition between competitors of similar size and skill?
Just an observation.
First we hear that to stay in tip top fighting form you have to be training and fighting all the time, then all of a sudden less is more (Sevenstar), lol. You guys should make up your minds..
Victor quote:
"Well…then…I got to cut your “over-eager to prove him wrong attitude” some slack - because I think James (sihing) is really deluding himself with these kinds of assertions. And I’ve told him that on the Wing Chun forum many times.
There’s a certain science behind Wing Chun that clearly gives it an advantage in the standup, infight, close-quarter striking/kicking range than most other arts…but that’s also as far as it goes."
I think delusional is the wrong word to use here. I do not think WC is a magical Martial Art that requires no work and effort to learn & apply. To gain high quality in anything in life requires hard work and effort. This is the literal meaning of KUNG-FU. WC is no different. In the end IMO, if one puts the hard work in MT vs. WC, the WC man/woman will win in a fight. Why? Because the movements, strategy, concepts, principals, techniques encompass total effectiveness and efficiency. All arts require sweat to learn, to a high quality. All arts require blood loss to learn to a high quality. All arts require aches and pain to learn to a high quality. WC is no different. So if all of this is equal, what determines the most effective art? The one based on more effective and efficient movements. In the end when strength and speed are equal then skill will win. When strength and speed are not equal, then the only way to bridge that gap for the weaker party is superior skills, technique and concepts in fighting methods. WC provides you with this edge, that was the whole purpose behind it creation. Deny that and you deny it’s existence.
Victor,
The science of WC goes beyond the close quarters fighting techniques that most think. The grappling is there, you just have to see it, and the longer range kicking is there too. Its how the WC system applies it that is different. Like Bruce Lee said, don’t grapple a grappler, don’t kick a kicker…
James