question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it’s an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.
Russ.
The key to a style’s success is how it is trained.
Yes I agree, but who ever said the people that practice “Martial Art” don’t train hard?
James
Re: martial art VS martial sport
Originally posted by captain
[B]question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it’s an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.
Russ. [/B]
I thought Ernie said that Gary Lam felt MT was better in the ring and WC was better in the street. Since he did both, his belief must be based on something? Training for the sport is different, maybe the same as the difference between training for the 100 meter run and the 10,000 meter run. Both tpe of people run and have to be in shape but the strategy is different. I think right now there are all kinds of ways that WC is being trained and a few have done well inthe ring sports because they trained for that.
Ray
Originally posted by sihing
[B]Yes I agree, but who ever said the people that practice “Martial Art” don’t train hard?
James [/B]
nobody. But, compare the avg sport school to the avg tma school. In general, I’m sure you’ll find that the sport schools are training harder. Why? because they have fighters. At our gym, there are always people getting ready for some sort of competition - you have to train hard for that. With non competition schools, you aren’t training to beat someone who is as good as you or better on a regular basis. you aren’t stepping into a ring to win a match. Consequently, the level of training will naturally tend to be different.
here’s the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?
Originally posted by SevenStar
here’s the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?
Art is art and sport is sport!..Different needs different focus and training.Different tastes ETC…
BTW,sport fighters can have all of the sport scene for themselves;they should at leat leave the “art” defenition to us,martial artists!..
agreed…
Martial art can easily be martial sport in my opinion, but on the flipside would require a bit more work.
The most stand out difference between the sport fighters and the martial artist, is primarily the training methods of the two and the experience they have ACTUALLY FIGHTING or sparring with contact. So to achieve this end the martial artist would only need to train as the martial artists did when their lives depended on it day in and day out. Not the way most watered down mcdojos are doing nowadays.
For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of “total” enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real “style”) would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.
That brings another question to mind…aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?
For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of “total” enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring.
Is there “partial” enlightment?
Carlos Gracie Snr. was a highly spiritual man.
There are many good fighters without “big” muscles. One of them, Kostya Tszyu, just won a world boxing title.
Arguably, there are more pitfalls on the way to spiritual development through the practice of a TMA as opposed to a sport, where one’s ego is kept in check through stressful confrontation, and regularly dealing with loss, disappointment and adversity.
There no sound reason IMO that TMA’s are better or worse than sports for character and spiritual development. I find him a bit too granola-munching new age for my taste, but Dan Millman started out as a champion gymnast.
You find a lot of arrogant, egotistic sportsmen, but I’d postulate you find just as many similar people in TMA. Maybe more.
Re: martial art VS martial sport
Originally posted by captain
question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it’s an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.
To be competitive in MT, you need to be competent at a range of skills. WC does not have clinching and kneeing which leaves them very vulnerable. A lot of WC guys can’t kick or defend a kick which leaves them vulnerable.
Just doing WC, no matter how it’s trained, will not be truly competitive unless you have a decent range of skills.
Re: Re: martial art VS martial sport
Originally posted by Edmund
WC does not have clinching and kneeing which leaves them very vulnerable. A lot of WC guys can’t kick or defend a kick which leaves them vulnerable.
Really???
Now you tell me…
WC does’t have kneeing??
News to me.
As for the “Sport” vs “Art”
If it is done in the spirt of competition, it is a sport.
If it is done in the spirt of expression, it is an art.
Kung Fu is niether. It is the colection and enchancement of skills by spending time practiceing.
Re: WC does’t have kneeing??
Clinching and kneeing.
So let me get this straight.
No Clinching and kneeing?
But just kneeing?
How about just clinching?
And we can’t kick.
Or defend against a kick.
Man, we stink. :rolleyes:
Correct.
You stink at those things.
so I can’t…
Practice Man ging sau with Oi Sut?
How about lan sau with Tie Sut, lop and Tie Sut sut, or a close in driveing bil sau with a solid rear leg delivered Ding Sut with sueng ma stepping?
Oh man, i’m screwed. 
Originally posted by Edmund
[B]Correct.
You stink at those things. [/B]
LOL
Originally posted by old jong
Art is art and sport is sport!..Different needs different focus and training.Different tastes ETC…
BTW,sport fighters can have all of the sport scene for themselves;they should at leat leave the “art” defenition to us,martial artists!..
Watch to boxers (since that was the example you used) Compare the style of an in your face indside puncher like tyson, to an outside fighter, like lewis or kiltchko. Tyson wants to slip inside and attack relentlessly with hooks and uppercuts - foreman used to do the same thing. lewis and klitchko have a stiff jab and a pretty solid cross. They have a long reach and prefer to fight on the outside.
These fighters know the same techniques, but they fight so differently - is their expression of boxing not art?
Just tonight in class, I was talking to a guy that I’ve known/trained with for the past 8 years. Coincidentally, he said, “it’s amazing how we’ve had alot of the same training but have evolved so differently,” referring to our preferences in fighting. Is that expression not art? If not, then where do you think “art” comes into play?
Re: agreed…
Originally posted by Vankuen
For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of “total” enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real “style”) would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.
how much experience have you had with sport fighters? IME, more tma have ego problems than sport fighters. Why? because getting your a$$ kicked keeps your ego in check. a mindset of “total” enlightenment? please elaborate. And, that "conglomeration of techniques with no real ‘style’ " bit was WAY off.
That brings another question to mind…aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?
should there be a difference? you train wing chun. I train muay thai and judo mainly, but train bjj as well. muay thai is no less effective than wing chun. IMO, choice of style really makes no difference - it’s more a matter of the individual picking a style that suits him.
“The key to a style’s success is how it is trained.”
Absolutely right.
“I’m sure you’ll find that the sport schools are training harder. Why? because…there are always people getting ready for some sort of competition - you have to train hard for that. With non competition schools, you aren’t training to beat someone who is as good as you or better on a regular basis.”
Right again.
“Here’s the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?”
Just because it is trained for competitive sporting events doesn’t mean that it’s not a martial art.
As for clinching - very little of that going on in Wing Chun…but kneeing - yes. Kicking - yes.. Elbow strikes - yes. Defending kicks - yes…but the extent and the quality of the above varies GREATLY within the WC world.
And the truth is - not enough WC schools pay adequate attention to the above moves. Too much “sport” chi sao goin’ on. Too much time spent “perfecting” the forms…or looking good on the Wooden Dummy…or with the Butterfly Swords or Dragon Pole in hand - preparing for the next demo.
The problem with Wing Chun is that - FOR MANY PEOPLE - the soft side of the art (ie.- sensitivity development, don’t fight-force-with-force, deflection, avoidance of the incoming force - ala chi sao, etc)…is OVERDEVELOPED at the expense of the hard side of the art…the explosiveness of the striking…the attacks on major targets (ie. - headshots, kicking techniques that land with authority)…the hard no nonsense bare-knuckle sparring made famous by some through the years, etc.
This mindset has made it too easy for Wing Chun to become a “lite sport” (how many WC schools spend little or no time doing stretching, strengthening, conditioning, bag/mitt/shield work - and last but not least - hard contact sparring?)
And instead choose to spend 80% of their time doing forms and chi sao?
The science - and the “art” behind the theories and guiding principles of Wing Chun ARE very intricate, involved, and evolved…but the downside to this has been a real lack of HARD TRAINING.
Like Bruce Lee said in Enter The Dragon: “It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. But don’t follow the finger - or you will miss all the heavenly glory.” (He was talking about JKD as the finger)…But I’m talking about the “science” and “art” of Wing chun as being the finger…if we get too lost in all of that (ie. - spend too much time delving into it’s intricacies and subtleties - as in hours and hours of non-stop chi sao)…we’ll miss the whole POINT of it…
FIGHTING. (The heavenly glory!)
“Ah…I love the smell of napalm in the morning” - Robert Duvall (Apocalyse Now).