Teaching people who are already experienced in a sport art

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Do you guys find it hard to teach people with experience in hard hitting sport arts? I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid. At his school they spar twice a week. At my school we spar sporadically.

I admit that I was a bit intimidated by his experience. He was very humble and always wanted to study Chinese martial arts. I find that complete newbs are wowed by tcma but experienced students get bored quick.

How could teaching si lum Tao, stances, and gate theory compare with classes where you hit daily and spar constantly? Like I said so far he is humble but I just don’t believe that tcma training compares, in terms of being fun and engaging, with other sport arts.

What’s a good way of teaching beginners who aren’t beginners? The military does this by breaking you down and building you up. Some martial arts teachers have that attitude but I don’t agree that you have to intimidate people to get them to learn.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1118540]Do you guys find it hard to teach people with experience in hard hitting sport arts? I taught a guy once who had been studying Thai boxing since he was a kid. At his school they spar twice a week. At my school we spar sporadically.

I admit that I was a bit intimidated by his experience. He was very humble and always wanted to study Chinese martial arts. I find that complete newbs are wowed by tcma but experienced students get bored quick.

How could teaching si lum Tao, stances, and gate theory compare with classes where you hit daily and spar constantly? Like I said so far he is humble but I just don’t believe that tcma training compares, in terms of being fun and engaging, with other sport arts.

What’s a good way of teaching beginners who aren’t beginners? The military does this by breaking you down and building you up. Some martial arts teachers have that attitude but I don’t agree that you have to intimidate people to get them to learn.[/QUOTE]

First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don’t break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.

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[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1118548]First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don’t break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.[/QUOTE]

My statement implied the attitude part. A breakdown in attitude will allow someone to see that maybe their sh!t does stink a little.

If a school has an established curriculum it could be hard to teach students differently. I’ve heard the stories about Yip Man teaching sufferer students differently but they all had to learn the basic curriculum. What if the basic curriculum sucks compared to the stuff people have already done in their mind? They’ll just quit I guess.

I guess what I’m trying to ask is what does WC offer to a student already established in a sport art?

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I guess the question is, is wing chun a specific teaching path, or a fighting style? Since there is little agreement on the former from school to school, and universal agreement on the latter, it seems safest to train from the perspective of the latter.

As for attitude, you say he is humble and enjoying it, it seems like there is nothing to break. He chooses to train what you have, then train him well, he’ll do with it what he will, just like any other student.

I have a student who does bjj, in my class, I make sure he knows I want him to work on our specific techniques, not as an attack on other techniques he knows, I’m fine with him using them, but because it’s what he’s at my class for.

Plus, it allows your students to experience how to use their wing chun against other systems.

It’s always good to remember that there isn’t one perfectly defined way people train wing chun, there are huge variations, and every teacher in the line had their own way of teaching it. We should as well.

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[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1118548]First, the military breaks down your attitude, they don’t break down your expertise. You train him as advanced as you think he is, imo.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. If he’s ready teach him something more on his level.

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Additionally, I think that hitting things constantly and even sparring teach things about stance and gate theory as well. I’m not sure that early wing chun proponents were exactly big believers in beginners not getting in fights. Now, we have safer and less illegal and more organized approaches available, with safety equipment.

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[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1118560]Agreed. If he’s ready teach him something more on his level.[/QUOTE]

I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.

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[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1118562]I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.[/QUOTE]

This paragraph could be a huge eye opener for me…I just have to make sure I understand it. Lol.

Are you saying that advanced students should keep training and not teach too early because they’ll just be teaching basics?

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1118564]
Are you saying that advanced students should keep training and not teach too early because they’ll just be teaching basics?[/QUOTE]

Well, it could end up being that. My perspective is, when people become advanced, they are often funneled into teaching when they should be crossing hands with each other, training drills that develop them further, etc. It’s not so much, in my view, that they will only teach basics, but that they will not have an advanced understanding of the basics, and so teach by rote what works against other people who learned by rote.

It’s like if you finished a Bachelor’s degree in engineering, and moved on to pursue a Masters, but only taught all the time, and never pursued your thesis except as a secondary goal. The quality of your understanding would not develop as it could, and your teaching will also suffer for it.

If you spent four years becoming advanced(from a beginner), you should at least spend two years training in advanced classes with advanced people, as an arbitrary guideline. If you help teach a class here and there, it is in addition, not substituting your advanced training.

If a school pursues a similar program geared toward proficiency over turning out instructors, they will have instructors, and ones who teach based on understanding, not teaching by rote what they were taught by rote.

Such a school could accept more easily, as the quality of the school rises, experienced martial artists from other styles, and benefit from exposure to different techniques by the advanced people having to use their style against techniques they didn’t have to before.

Just my views.

The difficulty is in how to view the advanced guys who are on the cusp of being qualified to teach. To treat them as perpetual lessers will drive them away, to treat them as cash cows will require you treat them as lessers, which will drive them away. However, since most advanced classes would be based around things like chi sao(and not constant lessons, but constant practice at the advanced level), such classes might attract experienced guys to stay for the enjoyment of knowing 1)I will be playing rounds of chi sao, with a group dedicated to doing so and not chatting and wasting my training time, and 2)I can test new theory #4. Thus, now you have your advanced class surrounded by experienced guys, stealing their usage of the style just to survive, which spreads without having to teach it at all among the experienced guys.

I use chi sao as a topical example, sparring could be part of it, striking drills on pads, etc, non-form, free form application of the techniques from the fprms they know, which will improve their knowledge of the style, and better inform their forms.

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recognize his skill and talent, and offer him the idea that what you teach is a particular set of skills that will enhance what he already has, rather than replace it, which would put him in a mentally defensive position.
Cross training, or learning other arts is like a set of gears;
you can choose to look at only where the gears clash,
or you can choose to see where they fit in with each other.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1118576]recognize his skill and talent, and offer him the idea that what you teach is a particular set of skills that will enhance what he already has, rather than replace it, which would put him in a mentally defensive position.
Cross training, or learning other arts is like a set of gears;
you can choose to look at only where the gears clash,
or you can choose to see where they fit in with each other.[/QUOTE]

Good stuff, Rik.

How’s the new school going?

You going to go to Maryland this weekend for that tournament?

Tanjianshan…whatever :),

Good stuff too. I agree with your philosophy.

A new rule should be put in the registration. Only chose names that are easily pronounced and spellable. Tentigers…easy. Savvysavage…easy

Tia Joan shoe size…not so easy. J/k

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just a quick question. why dont you spend more time hitting stuff and doing cardio training.
Your training a martial skill, meant to be used in combat.

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[QUOTE=jesper;1118590]just a quick question. why dont you spend more time hitting stuff and doing cardio training.
Your training a martial skill, meant to be used in combat.[/QUOTE]

We do just not as much as a Thai school. I know two people that train Thai and the bulk of what they do is hit pads.

My WC school has a lot of sticky hand drills, 18ish hung gar forms(I think), technique drilling, stance training,etc. There’s a lot to learn in the so called traditional training schedule.
We don’t hit bags and pads every class though.

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You should keep in mind that I have a 55-33-2 record in full contact death matches!

Think “tie shoe quan”, we do progressive training, the first ten years are spent working on bunny ears.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1118588]Good stuff, Rik.

How’s the new school going? I think Tim Cartmell is coming to Manhattan in November.

You going to go to Maryland this weekend for that tournament?
[/QUOTE]
New school is awesome-great digs, great location, high ceilings for lion dancing!
A lot different than my old location, although I kinda miss the bullet holes in the window…

I will definitely check out Tim’s seminar. That last one was great. Although taking falls all weekend is hard on this old body-I’m not fifty anymore!
We just came back from Wash DC, so Maryland is out. Trying to get students together and come up with the cash for another big trip-gas, food, lodging, etc isn’t easy.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1118596]New school is awesome-great digs, great location, high ceilings for lion dancing!
A lot different than my old location, although I kinda miss the bullet holes in the window…

I will definitely check out Tim’s seminar. That last one was great. Although taking falls all weekend is hard on this old body-I’m not fifty anymore!
We just came back from Wash DC, so Maryland is out. Trying to get students together and come up with the cash for another big trip-gas, food, lodging, etc isn’t easy.[/QUOTE]

Try taking falls all weekend after having driven 8 hours and then driving home another 8 hours. I was ready to leave the temple after that. Kwai Chang Kane couldn’t have done that.

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I think that you are over analyzing the guy. If he didn’t value what you had to offer he wouldn’t be there. I wouldn’t short change him by not running him through all the basics. I would start him out on how to make a proper fist and run him though the whole thing. Just because he is a decent fighter or even if he can kick your butt, who cares? He is there to learn Wing Chun. Teach it to him and don’t skimp because you think he knows or won’t value it because he studied “big bad Muay Thai.” If you now your stuff, you can answer his questions about the differences, he will find a place for the WC that you teach.

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[QUOTE=Taixuquan99;1118562]I think that an experienced student is an important test for a class. If the class is always the same for beginners and advanced people, this leads to perpetual beginners. If the advanced people are always doing advanced classes, and not funneled into teaching as soon as they are deemed advanced, the quality of the school will be higher.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this as well, we do this at our school. All student train with each other, advance and novice alike. From what I’ve noticed the skill level of the novice increased exponentially as opposed to lets say 6 years ago when most of the class was just beginning. This can be attributed to the fact that the new student were able to learn from the experience of the more senior students and quickly catch up so that they would not be left behind in class. Furthermore it’s motivating to train with people better than yourself so that you have something to aspire to.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1118601]I think that you are over analyzing the guy. If he didn’t value what you had to offer he wouldn’t be there. I wouldn’t short change him by not running him through all the basics. I would start him out on how to make a proper fist and run him though the whole thing. Just because he is a decent fighter or even if he can kick your butt, who cares? He is there to learn Wing Chun. Teach it to him and don’t skimp because you think he knows or won’t value it because he studied “big bad Muay Thai.” If you now your stuff, you can answer his questions about the differences, he will find a place for the WC that you teach.[/QUOTE]

I agree, there is not harm is showing the basics however if the student has the aptitude and ability one should not dwindle on those basics for to long. Basics can be practiced at home once learned, class time is for training that one can not do at home (i.e. chi sao/gor sao and discuss topic/ask questions to senior students/sifu).

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[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1118608]I agree, there is not harm is showing the basics however if the student has the aptitude and ability one should not dwindle on those basics for to long. Basics can be practiced at home once learned, class time is for training that one can not do at home (i.e. chi sao/gor sao and discuss topic/ask questions to senior students/sifu).[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, in fact, I would ask him to show me things. In addition, I would tell him that once he got better steeped in WC methods, I would give him an opportunity to teach to the class if he wanted or I would present some of his material.