wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name… i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.
No arguments here.
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;873272]wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name… i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]
i agree!
after thinking about this recently i have come to my own conclusions, you may agree or disagree…
is wing chun just included in the forms and techniques we learn, or can it be anything that applies the same rules and theories? after all - it started somewhere and evolved based on the original principles
also if one person is better at wing chun than another does that make them a better fighter? And if they are not a better fighter does that then mean that the other person is then better, as this is an art for fighting?
just my tu’penneth 
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;873272]wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name… i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Well, according to the highest ranked people in the WC community, yes, its still WC.
In the end, the only thing that matters is the results, of course one can argue what results matter.
Thanks guys, you’ve given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You’ve given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn’t just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There’s always more to learn if we have the desire.
Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?
ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS “PURE”…
Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: 
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;873712]Thanks guys, you’ve given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You’ve given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn’t just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There’s always more to learn if we have the desire.[/QUOTE]
In times past when fighting for ones life was more common place, these things would be irreleveant, they kind of took care of themselves.
Nowadays, not so much, so indeed, one must pressure test in various venues.
Having bounced I can tell you, and most who have will agree, that the average “altercation” is hardly a fight, though you can on occasion get tested.
MMA is probably the way to go, as long as one keeps in mind that it is still a sport and not the real thing, nevertheless, you are applying your training VS a another trained fighter, something that you rarely get on the street.
Just keep in mind the issue of intent and mindset.
Pressure testing withing the kwoon has its limitations -
Same system, familiar people, low stress level
But is probably the best way to start.
A combination of all the above is ideal.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;873725]Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?
ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS “PURE”…
Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: :)[/QUOTE]
Give that man a cigar !
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;873712]Thanks guys, you’ve given me more to consider. Whats the best way to judge results? I guess competition is one way, and life application could be another. But i guess measurement of result ends up being kinda personal, probably biased somehow and definately not cut and dry. You’ve given me more to think about and thats what i asked for.
This really isn’t just about Wing chun, I think its about being a student and always trying to improve. There’s always more to learn if we have the desire.[/QUOTE]
In terms of martial art (or any sport or athletic activity for that matter), fighting skill is rather “cut and dried.”
Any physical skill is essentially your ability to successfully bring about a desired result – to successfully perform a specific task (with max certainty and min time/effort). In terms of fighting skills, this means successfully perform a certain task under combative (realistic) conditions. And since we are performing this against an opponent, our ability/skill to achieve this will be relative, i.e., will depend on the skill/ability of our opponent. In other words, our level of fighting skill is determined by level of the opponent we can successfully perform against.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;873795]In terms of martial art (or any sport or athletic activity for that matter), fighting skill is rather “cut and dried.”
Any physical skill is essentially your ability to successfully bring about a desired result – to successfully perform a specific task (with max certainty and min time/effort). In terms of fighting skills, this means successfully perform a certain task under combative (realistic) conditions. And since we are performing this against an opponent, our ability/skill to achieve this will be relative, i.e., will depend on the skill/ability of our opponent. In other words, our level of fighting skill is determined by level of the opponent we can successfully perform against.[/QUOTE]
That said and agreed with, one must also take into account and not underestimate the “untrained scrapper” who’s unorthodox methods can lead one into very interesting territory.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;873725]Is it still wing chun if you add some boxing hands?
Is it still BJJ if we add boxing and MT?
Is it still karate once we add boxing hands and Thai kicks?
Is it still Weng Chun once BJJ is added?
Is it still catch wrestling if we add some guard work and punching?
ONLY TO THOSE WHO HAVE A VESTED EGO AND/OR MONEY INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS “PURE”…
Otherwise, who gives a 5hit? :rolleyes: :)[/QUOTE]
I, for one.
From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.
I’m all for crosstraining. And I’m all for evolution.
But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is – your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;873356]iis wing chun just included in the forms and techniques we learn, or can it be anything that applies the same rules and theories? after all - it started somewhere and evolved based on the original principles
also if one person is better at wing chun than another does that make them a better fighter? And if they are not a better fighter does that then mean that the other person is then better, as this is an art for fighting?
just my tu’penneth :D[/QUOTE]
My view is what makes something WCK or muay thai or boxing or whatever is that we are using the SPECIFIC “tools”, the strategy, tactics, and movements/techniques, of that particular method. Would you say that someone is a good boxer who squares up with an opponent, drops his level,penetrates for a single leg, etc.? No, since these things are not tools in boxing but in wrestling. If he did this, what would it say about his boxing? Nothing. It says nothign since he has not used the tools of boxing.
Skill in boxing or wrestling or WCK is our ability to successfully use our particular art’s tools in fighting.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;873800]I, for one.
From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.
I’m all for crosstraining. And I’m all for evolution.
But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is – your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.[/QUOTE]
That’s just it, IF someone calls it anything other than what it is.
IF you cross train WC with MT and BJJ and call it the “real” WC or the “new” WC, I think that’s silly, so is taking what you learned from MT and BJJ and adding it to WC and saying it was always there, very silly.
BUT, cross training in those systems and teaching them together while still making it clear that A is from WC, B is from BJJ and C is from MT, is just fine, and the WC parts are still WC, just as the BJJ parts are still BJJ.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;873800]I, for one.
From my perspective, it is not about purity, it is about honesty.
I’m all for crosstraining. And I’m all for evolution.
But these various arts are distinct approaches, with distinct histories, curriculums, approaches to fighting, etc. I think it fine and dandy for you to personally blend them for your purposes. But then you should be honest and call it what it is – your personal blend. When a person calls it by another name, they are being dishonest.[/QUOTE]
Can’t believe I’m saying this… :eek:
T, couldn’t agree with yout more!
If you are training strictly for self defense, it should not matter one way or the other. If you are training for ring fighting, it still should not make a bit of difference. You train what you can do and use really well. A lot of the fighting skills we see and read about take a lot of physical ability. The stronger you are, the better you can be. This is not going to be easy for a lot of people, especially for those that are not physically endowed. It might take years before a person could apply some of this fighting skill. WC is not as simple as that, but one can train and use it in a fairly short time. Japanese Jujitsu can also be trained and used in a fairly short time. You do not have to be physically endowed to make it work either. There are going to be times when you simply get that ass kicked, no matter how hard you fight. It is enevitable if you put yourself in situations where it can happen. If you are interested in cage fighting, you have to look at it all differently. You will want to train in a way that most people tend to fight there. If you don’t it might put you at a disadvantage. The people you will meet there will know full well your intentions and will also know that you must have some skills or you would not be there. They will be prepared to kick that ass for you.
Wing Chun has some really great techniques for deflecting a punch or kick. Japanese Jujitsu and BJJ too for that matter, does not put a great deal of work into this area. They teach you how to effect a joint lock or break, but you have to figure out first just how you are going to get hold of it without getting broken up. For at least, WC gave me just those skills when I was training JJJ. It opened a whole new area of skill for me. What I had done was to intergrate skills of one into the other. I already had some grappling technique in my WC, but JJJ just gave me more control in that area. In the line of work I was doing part time this came to use a lot.
My friend that was teaching me JJJ told me that there were no submission holds in JJJ. I have seen them used in a lot of wrestling matches and fights, but what he meant was that they were intended strictly for inflicting injury upon an assailant. This came about one day when I was still quite young. I did a quick move and took a fellow down without his throwing a single punch at me. It was so easy. I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack. In the insuing struggle I got a loose tooth and a broken nose. Had I just palmed him on the back of his hand and hyper extended the wrist the fight would have ended right there. Fighting in the ring has referee’s. If you are fighting to defend yourself, except no submissions. Inflict injury and step back and cover yourself.
I think the reason WC and JJJ work so well for me is that the deflection techniques of WC can give you access to the persons arm and wrist very quickly and easily. This then puts you in command of your JJJ techniques immediately and without your getting your face plastered. In some cases I have seen a good JJJ man get beat around really bad for a while until he managed to get an oportunity to apply a technique. If he had been defending against more than one he might have really gotten kicked around.
Chiang
I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack.
That’s what chokes are for. Putting people unconscious without damaging them (much).
Quote:
I flipped him to the floor and took a wrist lock on him. He yelled uncle and gave up. I released him and he immediately stood up and resumed his attack.
That’s what chokes are for. Putting people unconscious without damaging them (much).
I think you are right. I ended up doing something close to that. I did a side choke that cut off blood flow and put him to sleep. Gave me time to exit without further altercation. The second take down was not quite as easy as the first one, costing me a tooth and a broken nose. Both my eyes got black too.
The problem with using chokes sometimes is that while you are doing it his friends might be doing something else. But, they do work pretty well.
The original question I think was, would it still be called Wing Chun. I don’t think what I did would be called wing chun after the entry move.
Chiang
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;873272]wing chun boxers have the right to study other arts, and change and evolve their own training methods based on their own experiences. So long as the resulting abilities or skills help the person acheive their goals it has to be good, right? so grappling chi sao can be good and so can studying bjj or mauy thai or tai chi or whatever. is it still wing chun?? who cares thats just a name… i just hope we all develop what we need to defend ourselves. or am i really missing something here guys? I say let our results speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]
No arguments there as long as you call the “results” MMA and NOT Wing Chun. That is if these results take one’s art OUTSIDE the concepts and principles of Wing Chun!
“No arguments there as long as you call the “results” MMA and NOT Wing Chun. That is if these results take one’s art OUTSIDE the concepts and principles of Wing Chun.” (HardWork)
***YOU still don’t get it, do you?! :rolleyes:
Reading this statement carefully, it’s hard to not get this message from it: “Wing Chun must be kept pure”…
And why?
Because there are more implications/conclusions that follow the first one:
“If we keep it ‘pure’…the day will come when wing chun chi-na and other wing chun-related grappling-type moves will be seen as making the total wing chun spectrum the equal (if not better than) any ‘mma’ as a total fight system.”
AND THIS IS JUST WISHFUL DREAMING…
For example, I mix wing chun with catch wrestling, some boxing, and some MT knees and elbows from the clinch.
Yes, it’s a mixed martial art. But when people ask me what I do, (ie.- when they inquire about my classes)…I say that I take an mma approach THAT MIXES WING CHUN, CATCH WRESTLING, AND BOXING…and some Muay Thai.
Because that’s what my “mma” is made of.
So that people understand what I’m doing…it’s not karate, it’s not TKD, it’s not BJJ, it’s not judo, it’s not kickboxing, etc…
it’s wing chun mixed with catch and boxing.
Morale of the story? Nobody has to define what they do the way you, HardWork, say they should. I’ll decide what’s wing chun and what’s not ‘pure’ wing chun, not you.
When at a certain range - most of what they’ll see me do is “pure” wing chun…oh, but wait, my opponent just clinched, so now it’s not wing chun you see me doing, it’s something else…oh but wait…I just broke the clinch and separated a bit - and now here’s a pak da followed by lop da and then three chain punches to follow (yes, that was “pure” wing chun at that moment, Mr. Spectator)…
and now…etc.
LOL, HardWork.
Because if you really want to understand what fighting is all about - you’ll need some luck.
i agree with Victor, besides who cares what’s “pure” wing chun. I’m not here for the name but the results. I think it was WSL who said make your kung fu work for you and don’t be its slave.