A few of you Tai Chi players have stated that you plan on getting in the MMA arena sometime in the future. How are you planning to apply Tai Chi’s positional concepts in formulating your strategies? What specific concepts have you found to be most readily applicable for the MMA format?
As Tai Chi players, we all know that these concepts apply across the board and aren’t really specific in dealing with any particular type of fighter. Which Tai Chi concepts are you currently working on in terms of ring-control and strategic movement, and how will you apply them in accord with the opponent’s movement?
All od Taiji’s treasures are hidden in Tui Shou. Whether or not you use specific techs from Taiji or another art is irrelevant. You fight like you push
We have been practicing some of the throws, breaks, and locks in tai chi…there is also something to be said about the positioning, but I am not too strong an expert in this field right now. I think that tai chi uses a great medium range, easy in easy out. Tai chi, albeit not for a lot of people, has some of the simplest approaches to a lot of techinques. Some of the throws found in tai chi are great counters, but can also be used for more attached takedowns, or submissions. The specific one that comes to mind right now is just a block step behind and a head lock…many things can be done from there, will it always work, no, but it can also just be a positioning tool.
Originally posted by Shooter
[B]A few of you Tai Chi players have stated that you plan on getting in the MMA arena sometime in the future. How are you planning to apply Tai Chi’s positional concepts in formulating your strategies? What specific concepts have you found to be most readily applicable for the MMA format?
As Tai Chi players, we all know that these concepts apply across the board and aren’t really specific in dealing with any particular type of fighter. Which Tai Chi concepts are you currently working on in terms of ring-control and strategic movement, and how will you apply them in accord with the opponent’s movement?
Shooter, this is not my own experience and I am not a Tai Chi guy…and this only one of those “my sifu told me” stories…but anyway, this is what I’ve been told about which may or may not be interesting to Tai Chi practitioners who are thinking about competing in MMA or full contact.
My Sifu Mr. Yu told me that one of the very best kung fu masters he ever met was a Tai Chi Chuan sifu in China who was strict traditionalist (totally different than Mr. Yu, who often rags on traditionalists who are caught up in forms, so this was not a case of style tainted master worship, quite the opposite coming from Mr. Yu). This guy was training San Da fighters who where very competitive on a National level within China, who he said were excellent well rounded fighters.
He said that this sifu (wish I knew his name) trained his fighters with traditional tai chi forms and exercises, but that when they fought, they didnt nessesarily look like they were doing Tai Chi, but good clean San Da, in which they could use their techniques.
Sorry if thats not the specific answer you were looking for, as I don’t know what specific training methods they were doing or ring strategies that they employed, only that it was from a traditional Tai Chi Chuan background and that they were obviously training hardcore enough to be very competitive in San Da. Just wanted to add that to your discussion, because I seldom hear of Tai Chi fighters training hardcore for full contact fighting.
Water Dragon, I agree with the irrelevance of technique, but which Tai Chi concepts are you currently working on in terms of ring-control and strategic movement, and how will you apply them in accord with the opponent’s movement?
How (if at all) are you planning to apply Tai Chi’s positional concepts in formulating your strategies?
Dude, I work straight off yielding, leading and following. I use the Tui Shou to let me know what technique I’m setting up. I know, hard to explain. It’s one of those I need to let you feel me type deals.
Dude, I work straight off yielding, leading and following. I use the Tui Shou to let me know what technique I’m setting up. I know, hard to explain. It’s one of those I need to let you feel me type deals.
Water Dragon, it’s not as simple as what you wrote above. We chatted about this last night, and even my first-year training partners can explain in detail how Tai Chi’s positional concepts are applied to the movement and intention of an opponent.
MutantWarrior, thanks. That’s interesting, and consistant with the idea that there doesn’t necessarily have to be “identifiable kung fu techniques” which are peculiar to a given system in order for their underlying principles to be present.
I’ve read about the same thing alot, that when masters from different styles met and fought you couldn’t tell one style from the other. Whether its Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Chang Chuan, Hung Gar, White Crane etc. They all looked the same, just straight kicking, punching, throwing. You could tell a bit of a difference from how they handled attack and defence but you get the point.
Stacy, If you don’t know how to use TC fighting how can you know who dose or dose not?
L, I don’t see how this could really be true having some experience with different styles, the better people that I have met always looked and demonstrated movements, usage of their style. If they didn’t I would say there is a big disconnect between their training and usage.
I think what shooter, is talking about is something that makes TC very different, most people and styles operate on conditioned reflexes, this deals directly with speed, power and strength. Something that people really put a lot of time in developing and can be very style specific.
TC deals with or attempts to deal directly with coordination of consciousness with the body. This is really independent of style but I haven’t seen it addressed as directly as in TC, (most styles are concerned about overcoming the others body) even with in those that play TC not many that I have met really train this directly. (Meaning they are kind of stuck at one level of their training, haven’t gotten past the outer form)
By working with the intent you can control the space a person uses. Think of 2 people in a hallway walking opposite directions. Each trying to avoid and pass the other but some how they manage to hit each other.
One senses the intent of the others direction before they step out, and moves, unfortunately if the other cannot also sense it one person tends to be out of sync and they bump or really have to get around each other. I think most people have done or felt this.
This is not to say what is better but only to identify some very fundamentally differences in thought and approaches to MA.
If you feel that what you do trains this cool, but I would say for most if you stop and think what you are training it will be different then what I am talking about.
bamboo_leaf, the example you used is from a vantage point of much deeper insight and experience, but you nailed it. The main difference is my having to structure the methodologies on a level everyone with whom I train for MMA can understand from a common frame of reference.
For most Tai Chi players, it’s a matter of really understanding the 5 Steps and learning to really differentiate sticking and following. These ideas are where Tai Chi’s positional strategies and movement come from. I give them structure by defining their usage based on points of reference pertinent to ring-fighting and the intent of the opponent.
Based on what’s come out in this discussion so far, how do the 5 Steps, and stick and follow apply to ring-control and strategic movement? How would they be used in relation to the opponent’s movement and intention?
Are these ideas within the training paradigm in how you future Tai Chi fighters will prepare your game plan? Or will you draw from another source outside of Tai Chi in formulating your ring strategies?
OK, This one I can contribute to. When I fight, the first thing I want is physical contact with the opponent. I like to get my hands on the other guys shoulders and keep a pound or so of pressure on him. What I’m doing is trying to connect into his center through the shoulder so I can stay in control. This also keeps me on top of his center so that I can nullify the shoot when it comes. This is kinda like a sprawl but a little different.
Anyhoo, the pound of pressure is stick. I need to keep that pressure there so I can feel a change in movement. If the pressure increases, I know that’s a forward motion which is most likely an attack on the way. At this point, I’ll try and yield and then juice him into a tech of my own (this is leading) This is where the Shuai Chiao comes in. Simply because, IMO, the art is better at exploiting the other guys structure. That’s what Shuai Chiao is known for, that’s what it excels in.
If I feel a decrease in the pressure, that tells me there’s a backward motion which is going to be either an attempt to disengage, or the guy’s trying to be sneaky and come around the side door. In either case, this is the time where you increase the pressure to get him off balance a little (This is following) This is also the time to initiate your own attack.
Remember, that this whole thing plays out in a fraction of a second. Being able to feel where a person is going comes from a lot of cooperative Tui Shou. Also, not every attempt is going to occur in a result and it’s possible to add little things in to force a response. I LOVE to come in, jostle the left shoulder, jostle the right shoulder, and then pop both and rush in for an attack. What can I say, works for me.
I don’t use the 5 steps. I was always taught the stepping just happens as a part of the yield/lead/follow. The other funky thing I use that I have absolutely no idea how to explain is seeing circular movements. It’s kinda like: If your coming at me, there’s going to be a “path line of force” that YOU CAN SEE. It’s not really that you know where the force is going, it’s that you know where it’s NOT going and you place your body where that point is. Anyone else ever experience this one?
That sounds cool and all but how do you deal with someone that practices laying in the guard 10 hours a day and butt scoots when you are pressing his shoulders(falls down and invites you to mount)? How do you apply those principles when you have a ground and pounder that out weighs you by 100 lbs folding you up? Or the wrestler that has practiced doubles and singles since he was 6? What I am asking is how do you apply taiji once you are on your back? Principles are great but isn`t actual technique at least as important?
OK. Techniques, at their true level, are nothing but principles. This is the part I love about CMA. The way you look at a technique defines how you see the art. I’ll use BJJ as an example as I’m trying to apply this to my learning of that art at the present moment.
BJJ has basically a few techniques ran from the five superior positions. Example, BJJ has a sweep. Doesn’t matter if it’s a scissor, elevator, push sweep, etc. These are variations of an “idea” or principle. When you grasp the principle, you do the same sweep every time but change it for the situation by intuition. You “master” the technique by understanding the principle. In essence, you MUST learn the technique to learn the principle.
Tui Shou or push hands is a skill set that teaches a different type of technique. When we are referring to sticking, following, leading, etc. We are talking about this ability the body gains to feel and control someone else’s center of gravity. This exists on the ground as well. The area changes though from the center of the hips to the center of the chest. BJJ drives the weight into this to immobilize it. If I’m in top, even in guard, I “ride” it like a wave. If I can control it, I can keep your body from getting the positioning to go for a sweep or arm attack as well as feel around for an opportunity to pass. What you do will determine how I move, but that’s OK. There’s only one guard pass with a lot of variations.
That’s basically how I see a merging of principle and technique. I just focus on this while rolling until the game begins to “click” one day out on the mat. That’s just my opinion though.
