Originally posted by delibandit
Your missing my point. Taiji is not a collection of special techniques or punches.
Then why have those forms with all the “Taiji moves?”
I’m not real sure I give a sh!t what taijiquan is and what it ain’t, and I have some reason to think that I do the stuff. Personally I think of it more as a set of strategies than a set of techniques, but you have to learn the techniques to understand and develop proficiency with the strategies. I think that’s probably not too different from most MAs, although I haven’t studied anything else, really.
Anyway, I’m really posting here to say it’s too bad that the victory was um…less than gloriously decisive, let’s say. Still, I’m glad that someone from CMA is out there busting some ass in mma, even if they’re only doing it accidentally.
5-steps is what distinguishes tjq from other systems in the ring…real tjq, that is.
Can you elaborate on “5-steps” please?
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
The ring/cage is its own quality control … who here enters it because they just happen to feel like it one day?
I’ve done that quite often.
IF the guy is tai chi (plus anything else) and he is continually entering MMA competitions, he will he heads above the other 99% of MA practitioners who have never done so themselves.
delibandit-
You are a brainwashed newbie. The instructor who is taking your money and filling your heaad with that rubbish should have to face someone in one of those “less advanced” arts that he talks about in front of his students.
CSN, no. I don’t really know what I’m talking about when it comes to the subtleties of tjq and ring-fighting. I just pretend to practice it for the mystique factor.
lol 
kick ass, brother
Shooter - I don’t mean to be sarcastic. I know you’ve posted a lot, but I don’t remember this particular buzzword, and I haven’t encountered it from my teacher either.
A link to an older explanation would be fine.
Oh don’t you worry, CSN. That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.
But seriously, I’m just maing that 5-steps stuff up. I didn’t really have a teacher, so I have to fill the gaps with my own imagination.
Nobody knows much about the 5-steps because they aren’t mentioned in the classics…but then again, they are. The classics scream 5-steps.
Hi Shooter.
By all accounts you re a good fighter who uses tai chi. Fair enough.
But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps… ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!
Then you re always like, ah, you wouldn t understand, or it would cause too much trouble or or whatever…
so when is the soon enough in ‘That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.’ and by what means… since you aint talking? Osmosis?!
BTW Iron, you’re forgetting that there’s a hell of a lot of crossover in martial techs, given that there are only so mant ways a body can move.
So, if it looks like boxing to you (who doesn’t do tai chi) yet the practitioner can explain every move in tai chi terms, blow by blow through the match… then it’s probably tai chi, or he’s a **** good faker!
In this case, Sami whojamaflip hasn’t explained every move, but he says he does tai chi. Like I said, what’s he got to gain by lying?
The more valid points are, he got his ass whooped, failed to back up his idea that he didn’t need ground principles, and won by accident and he’s calling it tai chi! But then like Seven and Liokault and many others are saying, he’s still training essentially tai chi principles and he’s fighting MMA tournaments which is more than most people on this board (myself included).
Iron you’re on the wrong track about what tai chi should look like.
Different peoples tai chi is going to look different. With regard to punching - there are surely just non-effective and effective ways to punch, boxers, tai chi people, whatever, they’re going to look pretty similar.
The difference should be in the tactics. The tai chi boxer should be sticking and following with his punches, perhaps not bringing them back like a boxer might. But then, don;t some boxers do that? Punch from an extended position? So are they doing tai chi?
The difference is in what is emphasised in training, and the training method. Just because the end result looks similar doesn’t mean the one has just stolen the technique from the other.
You cannot perform applications from the form in as crisp a manner as they are in the form. It might look really scrappy. That’s the nature of fighting isn’t it?
But I agree that a tai chi fighter should have certain characteristics of movement and strategies/tactics, as well as certain techniques that are reciognisibly ‘tai chi’.
And I personally don’t think it should take years to learn to fight using tai chi. In fact it could be pretty quick dam quick.
Originally posted by IronFist
[B]I didn’t really read this thread.
Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn’t make it Tai Chi.
And don’t start with the “well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles…” If he’s in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he’s using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that’s great. But if they’re not exclusive to Tai Chi they don’t count as “Tai Chi princples.” [/B]
Some confusion reigned, and we saw blood- but unexpectedly, the blood belonged to Abdul. Berik had elbowed him above the eye while on his back in guard, and re-opened an old gash.
This stament and the details of the first time he was dropped tell me that he was using Tai Chi. The only other art I know of that can slip in on you like that is Kempo. Flowing movements that go along with the aggressor untill he/shi/it is caught be good and totally unaware untill too damn late. Yep. That’s Tai Chi in a fight.
[SIZE=1]late addition…[/SIZE]
But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps… ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!
Five steps is in reference to the five levels of mental preperation.
They are also incorperated in many other TCMA, but are not as stressed, if stressed at all. in Pai Lum, they are as follows:
strong mind > concentration > controll > discipline > self dicipline
This is not nesissarily how other arts phrase it, but in essence, it is the same.
Interesting definition of the 5 steps Becca.
In tai chi they’re basically directions, I think.
however Bruce has a differnet definition again, but won’t tell anyone. 
In tai chi they’re basically directions, I think.
Those five steps I listed are more than just the words used to describe them. Call’em directions, or what have you. But they have a goal, and that basiclly is to get your mind to think and respond in a spacific way. I discovered the connection between Pai Lum’s “5 levels of Meditation” and Tai Chi’s 5 steps by accident… I asked an off the wall question of a Sifu and that was the answer I got.
Cheers Becca, but I think Shooter is talking about physical principles. almost certain from the veiled references he makes. Let’s see shall we, whenever he gets back to us…
Knifefighter, I’m thinking you’re probbaly not the regular TMA, certainly not doing Cloud Hands in the park in a pink silk robe.
…
Delibandit:
I understand what you’re saying, really I do. But presently, BJJ is proving that it can turn out fighters, where the average purple belt will put a hurting on a 5 to even 10 year taiji player. I’m talking averages here. I know my teacher and his disciples can use their taiji, though there is a lot in there (Hsing-I, Ba Gua, weapons theory, etc), but you just don’t see a lot of taiji guys out there. Hell, you don’t see a lot of internal guys out there.
In NY I can only think of Mr. CC Chen’s school (Max and Tiffany), Novell Bell (Black Taoist)'s crew and my master, Mr. David Bond Chan. These schools do fight, probbaly more so than most external traditional styles in the area.
Well, given that I believe Bruce has something to say about things like the 5-steps, I actually have a record of what has been said in the past - it’s part of my recommended reading I just dont get all of it yet:
5-steps has nothing to do with footwork per se. It shows basic ignorance when people start discussing 5-steps as footwork. You use footwork to affect 5-steps method, but footwork is something other than 5-steps.
5-steps as a principle represents TCC’s positional strategies.
5-steps as a concept represents the relational chemistry 2 or more people form in struggle and violent conflict.
5-steps are the means by which players learn to stick, follow, link, and adhere under pressure
This was all in a very long thread on the neija forum a fair while ago, so i hope Bruce doesn’t mind me putting some of it here.
Regards,
Paul
Knifefighter: I am not a brainwashed newbie. My Taijiquan instructor is a very well-respected teacher. And Taiji is not the only art that he is proficient in. I’ve met some of the really large powerful guys who went to him first to scope him out and challege him that are now long-time students of his. Several have worked as night club bouncers and one was a prison gaurd. There have been judo guys that have come and tried to puts some moves on only to be frustrated at not being able to take him down. One of his students, a guy I know, is muay tai guy that fights in the ring. These guys are good at their primary arts plus they are big. I doubt they would be hanging around if my teacher was full of sh*t. I’ve seen these guys get tossed around by him.
EvolutionFist: I agree with you, BJJ and Muay Tai turn out effective fighters much more quickly. External martial arts are more intuitive and are therefore more easily learned and perfected to a certain level. That is not a put-down, it’s just a fact. Internal martial arts are much more difficult to understand in the beginning and their initial training period from no skill level to skilled level is much longer than in external. Plus, very few people who train internal ever really get to the skilled level. They just never really are able to make their body understand what is going on. Taiji is not really a practical self defence art. It is an advanced method of fighting.
Taiji is very hard to get. Most people who think they can fight with it are often fooling themselves because they misunderstand what true Taiji feels like. It’s a weird feeling, but when you do something correctly in Taiji, it often feels as if you’ve done nothing at all. That being said, I cannot fight with Taiji. My primary art for fighting is Tongbei. Not the wushu, slappity dappity, Qi style variety either. I practice shi style and it is very effective and all business. We also incorporate shuai jiao and grappling in our training. I think it is every bit as effective as BJJ and Muay Tai.
Ironfist: The moves in the forms and their martial applications are used to give an idea to the student about how certain movements can be used, and more importantly, how they feel when used. But these are not techniques, just illustrations of how particular movments can be applied. We use the form as a basic tool to understand and train correct posture and relaxation. It is done slowly so that the student can focus on correct physical feelings and integration, so that the mind and body can meld together and those feelings become a natural integrated part of the student. Done too fast, the student cannot correctly integrate. It becomes sloppy.
Sevenstar: Yes, other arts use borrowing and yielding, but the forces are more separated in these cases. Sort of yield then attack. Yin the Yang or Yang then Yin. In Taiji the yield and attack force (yin and yang) are integrated. The Taiji symbol is just that a symbol of Taiji, not yin and yang. The symbol represents an integration, a balance between the two. Many people get confused by this. Taijiquan is about the concept of Taiji, not yin and yang. It’s like a ball that is resting in the water and you push your force against it. What happens? Your force is transfered by the ball.