Tai Chi wins in MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

If a boxer wins 25% of his minor/amatuer league fights, I WOULD say he’s pretty good, better than 99.9 percent of the folks on the board TALKING about it.

If a professional wide receiver didn’t catch a single TD pass all year, I would say he’s run into some bad luck, maybe drawing double coverage, maybe even injured, but I’d bet if he’s playing at that level, again, he’s better than 99.9 percent of the fat fu(ks sitting at home drinking a beer talking about it.

The ring/cage is its own quality control … who here enters it because they just happen to feel like it one day? There is a whole lot behind that decision to enter … and exit in one piece.

I don’t know the man either, but his actions – even unseen – speak enough to me to gain my respect.

22

Regarding what things look like

I always find these comments funny. What do you expect to see, a scene out of Courching Tiger Hidden Dragon? For the guy to move in slow motion?

Taiji is a way of aligning your body, it’s about body structure, it’s about not apposing force … all qualities any good fighter should have. Some get there doing boxing, karate, BJJ. This guy is saying he got there doing Taiji. What’s the big deal?

23

Originally posted by IronFist
[B]Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn’t make it Tai Chi.

And don’t start with the “well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles…” If he’s in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he’s using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that’s great. But if they’re not exclusive to Tai Chi they don’t count as “Tai Chi princples.” [/B]

24

Hell, why don’t we call BJJ “karate” then. Or we could refer to Muay Thai as “kung fu.” I mean, they both involve striking, and blocking, therefore they must be the same, right?

25

I always heard Tai Chi used in fighting is performed quickly. I’ve seen Erle Montaigue do some fast stuff, so, no, I wouldn’t assume Tai Chi would be done slowly in a fight. But I would assume it would look like Tai Chi, ie. p’eng, or beauty looks in the mirror or something, and not jab cross from a boxing stance.

26

“If a boxer wins 25% of his minor/amatuer league fights, I WOULD say he’s pretty good, better than 99.9 percent of the folks on the board TALKING about it.”

lol! Actually, I boxed for my college’s team. Although I came a few years later, it’s the only national championship my school had ever won. I won a far cry more than 25% of my matches (all amateur under the USABA and NCBA) and I wouldn’t consider myself anything special at all.

Even so, if a guy is hitting .200 in high school, it doesn’t take Tommy LaSorda to point out that he’s not quite ready for the pro’s. All this is besides the point though. We are talking about his PRO record; not amateur. Big difference.

“If a professional wide receiver didn’t catch a single TD pass all year, I would say he’s run into some bad luck, maybe drawing double coverage, maybe even injured, but I’d bet if he’s playing at that level, again, he’s better than 99.9 percent of the fat fu(ks sitting at home drinking a beer talking about it.”

There could be countless reasons. His QB may be horrid. He may be double covered. They may have great red zone running. His O-line may bite, thus never allowing the QB enough time to get the ball off. All valid reasons that have NOTHING to do with him or his performance. The very reason why you can’t compare a one-on-one match to a team sport. I know I heard this somewhere…

BTW, lol @ you if you are implying I’m inactive.

“I don’t know the man either, but his actions – even unseen – speak enough to me to gain my respect.”

I whole-heartidly agree. I respect anybody that has the motivation, discipline, work ethic, and drive needed to be successful in the pro level of most sports. (I don’t know if curling has a pro division, but I’d have a hard time respecting it :wink: ). This is even more so to fighting because it’s just you out there with no teammates to fall back on, and there is something a lot more personal about getting beat down than losing a baseball game.

I just though the thread title was a little miselading and he is long ways from being any proof of TMA’s effectiveness. “Tai Chi wins in MMA!” (a quarter of the time to low-mid level pro’s) :wink: Not quite a rallying cry.

27

I would call Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Tai Boxing the same thing … I’d call them Martial Arts. They’re all kicking and punching and throwing. It’s just how they go about it. Usually, I can tell a Tai Boxer by the way he holds his hands up, a karate guy by a favored forward, sided stance. I’ve seen BJJ take both. Tai Ji guys are different. It’s not a look or posture. That’s the problem. The Taiji you are talking about and what I’m talking about are different. I’m not talking about 13, 24, 365 postures. I’m talking about how to ward off, how to issue force, how to absorb… I’ve seen boxers absorb beautifully.

I’ve been training internal now for a few years, I don’t know one form. I just know I’m a better fighter than I was 4 years ago. I’m stronger, more secure in my structure, more direct in my movement. Take a picture … you won’t see San Ti or drill fist. You’ll see power straights and uppercuts, you’ll see picking up and pressing down.

28

It dont matter if he looks like Tai chi or not. It dont even matter (for those that read a review of the fight) that he was dominated and slammed throughtout the fight and only won by opening a cut on the guys face with a dubious elbow strike.

What matters is that he went in and won against against a more experianced mma guy on his first fight and what really matters is that we have cma in there doing it!!

29

You can decide if he looks like tai chi or not as Cage Rage 9 will be on TV (at least in the UK)

30

It probably won’t be on TV in the states. At least not on free TV. Can someone post a vid or take pictures of the TV or something?

I would call Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Tai Boxing the same thing … I’d call them Martial Arts. They’re all kicking and punching and throwing. It’s just how they go about it. Usually, I can tell a Tai Boxer by the way he holds his hands up, a karate guy by a favored forward, sided stance. I’ve seen BJJ take both. Tai Ji guys are different. It’s not a look or posture. That’s the problem. The Taiji you are talking about and what I’m talking about are different. I’m not talking about 13, 24, 365 postures. I’m talking about how to ward off, how to issue force, how to absorb… I’ve seen boxers absorb beautifully.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

31

So your saying that if he quacks like a duck hes a boxer?

Would you know kung fu if you saw it? I dont mean a guy doing a form.
If you put a wrestler in a streetfight how much wrestling would you be able to pick out and how much would look like brawling?

just to add more fule to the fire heres a right report:

Welterweight
Abdul Mohamed vs. Sami Berik
CageWarriors WW champ Mohamed has recently jumped teams and now trains with Ian Freeman. An Afgahnistani monster with a wrestling background, he seemed easily equipped to deal with the guy who lists himself as a Tai Chi fighter, Sami Berik. In fact another sweepstake was running the press area, this time how long before Abdul put Berik’s head through the mat via a suplex.
Indeed, it took no more than a blink of an eye before Abdul had shot in and hoisted Berik into the air. Forcefully slamming the young Londoner to the mat, he found his head trapped in a desperate guillotine. Picking Berik way up from the mat, he slammed his way out and scrambled to take the back.

The awaited moment came and we in the audience had a flashback to how we felt when it seemed Randleman was slamming Fedor to the hospital. Abdul had lifted Berik high and launched him over in a belly-to-back suplex that had half the crowd cheering, the other half going “ooooh”. Somehow, Berik’s neck remained in one piece, but he found himself picked up and dumped again. I was thinking of WWE and considering exactly how many of those slams a human being could endure before serious injury occurred, and while doing some quick calculations in my head saw the Ref pulling the two apart.

Some confusion reigned, and we saw blood- but unexpectedly, the blood belonged to Abdul. Berik had elbowed him above the eye while on his back in guard, and re-opened an old gash.
Winner: Berik by TKO (Doctor’s stoppage) 2.41 Rd 1
Well, wow. I mean, wow. WOW. Berik didn’t get killed, and somehow managed to win in the process? Freaky stuff.

32

I think the issue here is that a CMA did [i]something[/i], which these days, is rare in the mma world. If cma entering mma comps was a regular occurrence, then there would likely be no commotion about it at all - no more than you would get from hearing about a thai boxer winning a kickboxing match. Maybe in a few years, what this guy is doing will be the norm…only time will tell.

33

My point exactly seven.

Its not important that if he wins or not, or even how he wins. Whats important is that its being done.

34

Ford, I wasn’t implying that at all. I don’t know you, but the impression I get is that you know something. And if you were boxing for a college team, and not just a club, I’m expecting you were quite good.

Hell, I played college ball for oen year and didn’t stand out there but in HS I was First Team All State, ect., etc.

My point is, just like the wide receiver who may have had a bad QB or $hitty O-line, an 0-5 MMA fighter could have faced very good fighters with lots of experience, zigged when he should have zagged in that crucial moment, got a bad call, etc. etc. Doesn’t mean the guy doesn’t have something.

35

I should know better than to post, because it’s like beating my head against the wall. What is Taiji (Tai Chi) suposed to look like? Please tell me, I’d like to know. Most of you have never seen or experienced real Taiji. I have. Stop judging the art based on it’s worst practicioners. What if I encountered a BJJ guy who totally sucks and see him get his ass beat? Does that mean it’s fair for me to assume that BJJ is ineffective and uselss as a fighting art? I learn Wu style Taijiquan. No, I can’t fight with it yet. It just takes a lot of time to alter your natural reactions for effective defence. Years and years actually. But that being said, Taiji is really about principles of movement and sensitivity. In Taiji, you hit however. With a punch, a kick, a throw, whatever. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that Taiji seeks to deal with the opponents force in the most efficient way possible, using minimum force to do so. That doesn’t mean no force or even a little force. It means the minimum amount necessary. So for a big guy, the minimum force could actually be a lot. It also means in terms of sensitivity that your opponent’s movement signals to your body the best way to move, and if he changes that movement, so do you, but in the most efficient way. You are always one step ahead of your opponent, if your sensitivity is good, because he tells you in his movement what he is going to do. Of course in Taiji, we maximize our force through good body structure, alignment, and integration, but it certainly is not going to look like the form we practice or our tui shou (push hands). The form is simply a tool for training movement. It is common for a skilled Taiji guy to intercept a force, sense the movement, borrow the force, disrupt the opponent’s root, then deliver a crushing blow, which could be a punch, a palm, a throw, or a kick. Taiji is so misunderstood in this country. It is sad. Actually, an understanding of Taiji principles makes whatever you do, BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, etc. better, because it improves sensitivity and use of force. Afterall, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. That’s not the important part, it’s how you deal with the opponent’s force that is the difference between taiji and say muay tai on a basic level.

bash bash <sound of head banging off wall>

36

Originally posted by delibandit
I should know better than to post, because it’s like beating my head against the wall. What is Taiji (Tai Chi) suposed to look like? Please tell me, I’d like to know.

Well, if it looks like boxing or it looks like Muay Thai, why is it called Taiji?

When you see someone doing Wing Chun, how can you tell it’s Wing Chun? When you see someone doing Muay Thai, how can you tell it’s Muay Thai? If you see someone boxing, you know it’s boxing and not Taiji.

What if I encountered a BJJ guy who totally sucks and see him get his ass beat? Does that mean it’s fair for me to assume that BJJ is ineffective and uselss as a fighting art?

No. But if every BJJ guy always lost you might do better proving your point.

I learn Wu style Taijiquan. No, I can’t fight with it yet. It just takes a lot of time to alter your natural reactions for effective defence. Years and years actually.

I don’t want this to turn into a this style vs. that style debate, but if it requires altering your “natural reactions,” is it really that good of an idea? If it takes “years and years” to develop fighting ability, how good of a “martial art” is it? Guys in a boxing gym usually spar on their first day (first week at least). How much would boxing suck as a martial art if it took years and years before you could use it?

But that being said, Taiji is really about principles of movement and sensitivity. In Taiji, you hit however. With a punch, a kick, a throw, whatever. It doesn’t matter.

So you could be doing boxing and it would still be Taiji if it fit the taiji principles of “hitting and defeating your opponent?”

What matters is that Taiji seeks to deal with the opponents force in the most efficient way possible, using minimum force to do so.

That’s kind of the same with all martial arts.

It is common for a skilled Taiji guy to intercept a force, sense the movement, borrow the force, disrupt the opponent’s root, then deliver a crushing blow, which could be a punch, a palm, a throw, or a kick.

Have you seen people do that against full speed, non-choreographed attacks from trained non-students?

Taiji is so misunderstood in this country. It is sad. Actually, an understanding of Taiji principles makes whatever you do, BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, etc. better, because it improves sensitivity and use of force. Afterall, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. That’s not the important part, it’s how you deal with the opponent’s force that is the difference between taiji and say muay tai on a basic level.

I suppose you have a point. But you can’t say some guy doing Muay Thai is doing Taiji just because he is sensitive or whatever.

37

Originally posted by delibandit
It is common for a skilled Taiji guy to intercept a force, sense the movement, borrow the force, disrupt the opponent’s root, then deliver a crushing blow, which could be a punch, a palm, a throw, or a kick. Taiji is so misunderstood in this country. It is sad. Actually, an understanding of Taiji principles makes whatever you do, BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, etc. better, because it improves sensitivity and use of force. Afterall, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. That’s not the important part, it’s how you deal with the opponent’s force that is the difference between taiji and say muay tai on a basic level.

That’s not really different. borrowing and yielding are both concepts you learn in thai boxing and bjj. The difference is that they didn’t take the time to define it. A thai boxers may yield and borrow, but he doesn’t realize that’s what he’s doing, because it’s not a defined principle.

38

Your missing my point. Taiji is not a collection of special techniques or punches. Of course if you are doing straight up boxing, it’s still western boxing, but if you intercept the opponent boxer’s punch and follow his force, then change your movement so that he begins to lose his balance, then his mind is focused on not falling and at that very point you deliver a western style boxing punch, it takes on something different. It’s not straight up western boxing anymore. Western boxing doesn’t deal with an incoming force that way. I’m not saying western boxing isn’t effective in dealing with an incoming force, it’s just different.

Why study an art that takes years to be effective? Well, I never said Taiji was practical in terms of immediate effectiveness. It is however, a high-level art. It’s like fighting with higher math to make an analogy. Sure maybe you can accomplish the goal through basic arithmetic, but the higher math does it more efficiently. And not everybody understands the the higher math either. It’s just that high-level Taiji skill, and not many have it, can really deal with a much greater force than might be possible given a person’s natural ability. Even with that natual ability trained to a high-level. The investment is more in terms of years etc, but the pay-off is really great. That’s why people train in it and train to change their natural reaction to something that is unnatural, because the results are spectacular. But also, traditionally, people also supplemented their training with more direct methods until the the Taiji skill was developed. My teacher, for instance, was really effective with Tongbei long before he was able to make a physical leap in Taiji skill. Even his Tongbei skill was useful later in understanding Taiji application.

Yes, I’ve witnessed unrehearsed Taiji demonstrations. I’ve also felt the power of Taiji. It is real, it’s just not easy to find.

I’m not saying that BJJ and muay tai aren’t effective, they are. But for most people who have never had the opportunity to experience real high-level Chinese gongfu, especially Taiji, it really seems that these arts are the most effective. That is deceptive really. BJJ and muay tai do not have some advanced modern formula that renders Chinese gongfu obsolete. There isn’t anything new under the sun about fighting that people didn’t know hundreds of years ago. People grappled then too. People kicked and punched then too. It’s just the state of Chinese martial arts in the US has been subject to poor training, misunderstood principles etc. Even in China, the state of the traditional gong fu is declining. Most young people want to get an education and make money, not spent hours upon hours learning how to fight. Hell, even Tae Kwon Do is more popular in Beijing than traditional gong fu. So, basically young people don’t really want to put in the effort like their forefathers. Their society is changing too. It’s getting fast-paced and modern like ours. Not too much time for practicing. They want a quick fix just like we do.

Nothing agaist BJJ or Muay Tai, but it requires less time to become a decent fighter in those disciplines than in traditional gongfu. And a lot of gongfu taught in the states is ****. Not all, but a lot. So the perception is that MMA, BJJ, and Muay Tai are better. What can you do? It’s really hard to convince people otherwise. It’s just human nature to trust big muscles and hard raw power, rather than to believe that softness can truly defeat hardness. If it’s not in your experience, it’s hard to believe or understand.

39

It is different. It just is. I can’t explain it effectively. All I can say is if you really want to know the truth, go seek out a real deal Taiji master. Hint, they’re usually not the one’s who are well advertised. Do some research and see for yourself.

40

Then get some hardcore gung fu or taiji guys from China or whatever hardcore school you want to fight in NHB and win.

Even if you ask a high level taiji guy, there’s no way to find out if it’s for real or not without actually fighting. Anyone can say “oh yeah, I’d do such and such if you did that move,” but that’s no better than a typical McDojo class. And most taiji guys wouldn’t want to fight to prove their art is better.

I’m not ruling it out completely. A BJJ guy could take a taiji guy down and have mounted him and the taiji guy does some palm technique and ruptures the BJJ guy’s kidneys. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s not likely.

Plus, that stuff is “too deadly for the ring,” isn’t it :slight_smile: :cool: :wink: