Tai Chi Question

Hi Chris.

I am with you on that one.

But the general public perceives the “internal arts” as the gently easy way to deal with an Opponent.

Few actually know what we really train in and what it takes to become good in our Arts.

Mostly due to the advertisement that a lot of the Arts get due to their health aspects etc, etc.

I always try not to laugh when people ask me why I study a “soft” style over the hard variety.
My Sifu aways says the soft styles are the more deadly and devastating ones.
Ain’t sometimes I wonder if she might not be right.
Also plenty of people get shocked when we show them our forms can also be done at full-combat speed.

Lode Runner.

Try to go and see a nice Tai Chi Combat Demonstration.
I am sure it will open your Eyes.

If you pm me I can point you do some
sites that have good clips.

My Sifu scares me, as she can do whatever she wants with me during Push hands.
And her punches & Grabs/locks feel like a lot of hurt.

Don’t judge a teacher too harshly if you visit on the amount of personal pointers vs. group information given out.

Some Chinese teachers consider singling one person out for correction in front of an entire class to be humiliating to the student. They will make a general statement - often only directed at one student - and then only directly correct that student in private (private lesson or if the student asks).

The group correction is also often a test to see who in the class is listening and if the members are sharp enough to figure out when a correction is aimed at them.

It may seem round about…but I know of a couple of VERY good teachers who do their class this way (we have discussed this approach in detail). With them, if they single you out in the group for anything but praise, they are really annoyed with you and are actually taking you down a peg or two…problem is, some of their students think the singling out is a good thing…:slight_smile:

Hi GLW.

Maybe it is because my Sifu is Japanese, but we get both class corrections and single corrections during the class.

But the single corrections are not done in front of everybody.

Said that we train multiple levels/forms at the same time and Sifu walks between the levels and gives corrections.

Sometimes she will come up and give different pointers to different peole in one Group.

Like I got told to lenghten my stance to prevent the knee from falling inwards and another student got told to relax the shoulers more.

But no humiliaton is intended nor meant to be given, but rather good solid advice.

I sifu wants to take one of us a notch or two down she will do so during Push-Hands.

Just a different view point.

>Ouch. Ya had to go and post this last one, eh? You had me up till this post. The notion that Taijiquan, Baguazhang, or Xing Yi Quan, etc. are “passive” martial arts is patently absurd.<

Of course I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.. after all, I am a fairly ignorant newbie. But from what I understand, Taji does not work like wah lum praying mantis or karate or anything like that. You do not meet force with direct force of your own. Instead of counterattacking in a traditional sense or blocking, you use your opponent’s vulnerabilities to your advantage and you base your attack on that alone. I call that passive.

>I am 180 degrees in opposition to this mindset. “Especially in today’s world”, the need for real self-defense skills, including but not limited to lethal tactics is greater than ever before. There is no longer any inhibition based on chivalry to sneak attacking an innocent victim, nor to attacking him/her with multiple attackers. Male assailants no longer feel any inhibition about attacking women as much as they may have in the past.<

I would hazard a guess that even in ancient China not every thug was “Lawful Evil.” (a D&D reference; Lawful evil means that while you’re evil, you still adhere to a code.) But that hardly matters; despite what the six o’clock news wants you to believe, we live in a pretty **** peaceful society. During the course of our lives, we might need these skills to save ourselves some bruises, or maybe even save our lives once or twice if we’re unlucky enough to get into such a situation, but unlike many cultures in the past (including many in ancient china, I presume) learning a deadly martial art is not necessary for our survival.

Now OTHO, if I DO maim or kill someone I could face some pretty dire consequences… even if I was justified. Neither going to jail nor being sued to smithereens sounds very pleasant to me. Plus, I might not be very comfortable walking around with the emotional baggage of knowing that I have directly killed someone, even if I was justified. There might be a lot of muggers and serial killers in the world, but there are at least a thousand times as many hotheaded punks and mean drunks and I really don’t think that me breaking their bones is going to do either of us any good.

Finally-- and I hope that I don’t inadvertently start a flame war with this statement – if I really wanted to learn an effective form of lethal self-defense I would learn how to use a handgun (and draw it quickly) and carry it always.

>Are you implying that you are also under the erroneous assumption that internal arts are “soft” in a real fight? If so, you would do well to first familiarize yourself with some of their methods in-person with an actual practitioner or instructor before making your final decision on where to train.<

I am aware of how vicious Taji can be. However, this art is based on rigorous self-control and self-awareness. I say it’s soft because that’s the impression I get; you know, like the reed and the oak tree and all that proverbial crap. Where the Karate student trains to kick harder and punch harder and block faster, the Taji student must train to understand his opponent’s attacks and weaknesses (and indeed, his own) better. Where the Karate student must check his blows and avoid hitting vital spots, the Taji student can still use his methods of deflection and redirection at full power and easily knock his opponent into a wall or onto the ground or otherwise momentarily stun him thus affording a timely escape. I know it’s not Judo but I was under the impression that it wasn’t about uber-deadly punches and kicks (or similar direct attacks) at all. Was this a mistaken impression?

>Sorry to be a bit harsh here, but red flags are going up regarding your impression of what the internal arts actually are, and for what real physical encounters are about. I’d rather tell you something you need to hear than something you want to hear.<

By all means, educate me. I’m going to ask the Sifu some questions on Tuesday and the less I sound like some clueless newbie the better.

>If you pm me I can point you do some
sites that have good clips.<

What’s a “pm” and how can I do it? I thought you were refering to some sort of instant messenger but you don’t have any listed (nor an email address) in your profile.

And yes, I am very interested in seeing clips of Taji sparring.

Lode Runner,

RE: “Instead of counterattacking in a traditional sense or blocking, you use your opponent’s vulnerabilities to your advantage and you base your attack on that alone. I call that passive.”. And if that’s what the internal arts were like, you’d be correct. Neijia very much do indeed execute counterattacks, even pre-emptive ones. Also, taking advantage of the opponent’s vulnerabilities does NOT equal passive. A boxer executing a bob & weave followed by a hook to the head is taking advantage of his opponent’s vulnerabilities.

RE: “I would hazard a guess that even in ancient China not every thug was “Lawful Evil.””. I get the reference, but I wasn’t comparing today’s circumstances to ancient China, nor China in any other time period. I don’t live there. I was comparing it to earlier periods in the history of the U.S.

RE: “despite what the six o’clock news wants you to believe, we live in a pretty **** peaceful society.”. Oh yeah? Where the heck do you live? Not 3 weeks ago, a man was murdered in his home not a block from where my parents live in an upper middle class suburb. One of my school acquaintances was raped last week (the first week of the college semester) outdoors, on the campus.

RE: “During the course of our lives, we might need these skills to save ourselves some bruises, or maybe even save our lives once or twice if we’re unlucky enough to get into such a situation, but unlike many cultures in the past (including many in ancient china, I presume) learning a deadly martial art is not necessary for our survival.”. I’m sorry, but this sounds like the typical liberal-style drivel of the naiive uninitiate to violent crime. It’s really easy for idealistic young adults to espouse this type of attitude if they’ve never faced the pointy end of a knife or the barrel of a gun, or even the enraged bare hands of someone intent on killing them or doing them serious bodily injury. I’ve been there personally more than once. I’m alive to write this because I learned deadly fighting skills, both with and without weapons.

RE: " Now OTHO, if I DO maim or kill someone I could face some pretty dire consequences… even if I was justified. Neither going to jail nor being sued to smithereens sounds very pleasant to me.". Me either, but being dead at the hands of a street thug while my wife is raped and killed sounds even less appealing. As they say, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

RE: “There might be a lot of muggers and serial killers in the world, but there are at least a thousand times as many hotheaded punks and mean drunks and I really don’t think that me breaking their bones is going to do either of us any good.”. Wow. You sound like quite the gambling man. Tell me, how is it that you know which type is going to be the one that attacks you? And besides, a hotheaded punk may very well deserve a minor injury for attacking a non-hostile person minding his own business.

RE: “…if I really wanted to learn an effective form of lethal self-defense I would learn how to use a handgun (and draw it quickly) and carry it always.”. That’s why I hold a Double X Marksman’s rating with a handgun. Also why I teach seminars and private training in knife combat.

RE: “Where the Karate student must check his blows and avoid hitting vital spots, the Taji student can still use his methods of deflection and redirection at full power and easily knock his opponent into a wall or onto the ground or otherwise momentarily stun him thus affording a timely escape.”. Deflection and redirection are a part of Taijiquan, but are you under the impression that this is its only, or necessarily even primary, method of response?

RE: “I know it’s not Judo but I was under the impression that it wasn’t about uber-deadly punches and kicks (or similar direct attacks) at all. Was this a mistaken impression?”. Yes.

All three sister internal arts, as well as other internals, contain extremely deadly and very direct attacks. Taiji’s penetrating punch or Laogong palm, Bagua’s Li palm, boring palm, or any of the eight gua-related palms, and all five of Xing Yi’s elemental fists, for that matter, can be purposefully deadly strikes to vital targets. Your impression of Taiji seems to be (understandably) that of most of America. That is, of old folks wearing Mandarin silk pajamas moving in slow motion and very large circles in the park at dawn. Or perhaps maybe as far as that of middle-aged hippies or New Age enthusiasts teaching it as a way to get into harmony with your inner child, who occasionally show a few harmless projections as applications. It seems to me that you might need to heed my earlier suggestion of familiarizing yourself with what Taiji really IS when in combat.

Validity

Oh yes it is valid of course! John Ding is a good example from what I hear about Yang family Taiji in the UK. It sjust merely people discussing Taiji who have not received a substantial amount of a transmission I guess. So people are not sure about to what extent of their styles art they sare going to receive and how legitimate it is, possibly.

Chris:

>Your impression of Taiji seems to be (understandably) that of most of America. That is, of old folks wearing Mandarin silk pajamas moving in slow motion and very large circles in the park at dawn. Or perhaps maybe as far as that of middle-aged hippies or New Age enthusiasts teaching it as a way to get into harmony with your inner child, who occasionally show a few harmless projections as applications. It seems to me that you might need to heed my earlier suggestion of familiarizing yourself with what Taiji really IS when in combat.<

I should point out that even in these forums (which I did scan quite a bit), the only direct attack used in a Taji match that I’d read about sounded like some sort of lock or muscle pull (don’t know the technical name for that; sorry.) That, combined with many statements I found on websites and in FAQs such as this one:

“Taijiquan as a martial art is based on the principle of the soft overcoming the hard…Using brute force or opposing anothers power with power directly is strictly discouraged. The goal of two person training is to develop sensitivity to the point that one may avoid the opponent’s power and apply one’s own whole body power wher the opponent is most vulnerable. One must cultivate the ability to “stick” to the opponent, smothering the others’ power and destroying their balance. Finally, the formal combat techniques must be trained until they become a reflexive reaction.”

led me to my conclusions regarding Tajiquan.

>It seems to me that you might need to heed my earlier suggestion of familiarizing yourself with what Taiji really IS when in combat.<

Ok. How? I visited the school today, and even the receptionist seemed confused when I mentioned that I was also interested in the martial applications of Tai Chi. I could accept that there were two general definitions and/or perceptions of Tai Chi, but now it seems like there may be dozens. What IS Tai Chi Chuan? Who the hell do I believe?

And in regards to the other discussion, I’ll simply say that I think you underestimate non-lethal combat. Everything I’ve read indicates that Judo is very effective for self-defense (and there’s a heck of a lot more to read on Judo than there is on martial Tai Chi), yet you don’t seem to share this view at all. Since you’re (presumably) a student of Taji I will accept what you’ve told me about the art; however, I do not accept your implication non-lethal combat is significantly less effective than lethal combat (unless you have some “passive” MA training to back such statements up.)

Lode Runner,

RE: “I visited the school today, and even the receptionist seemed confused when I mentioned that I was also interested in the martial applications of Tai Chi.”. Why should this seem particularly unusual. A receptionist may have absolutely no knowledge of martial arts whatsoever; he/she may simply be there to be a receptionist. Even if he/she is part of the teaching staff at the school, if the version of Taiji that school offers is the run-of-the-mill health dance version, it would not surprise me that the receptionist gave a blank look regarding the martial applications. I’ve seen that look many times from teachers claiming to teach Taiji.

RE: “What IS Tai Chi Chuan? Who the hell do I believe?”. Well, for starters, I would be heavily disinclined to embrace/adopt the opinion of those who cannot even demonstrate any martial applications or, worse yet, don’t even know that there ARE martial applications to Taiji.

RE: “And in regards to the other discussion, I’ll simply say that I think you underestimate non-lethal combat.”. No, I have simply contextualized it properly. Where control techniques are what is called for, it is the right tool for the job.

RE: “Everything I’ve read indicates that Judo is very effective for self-defense (and there’s a heck of a lot more to read on Judo than there is on martial Tai Chi), yet you don’t seem to share this view at all.”. Judo techniques very much CAN be effective for self-defense. I teach Baguazhang in a school that is a U.S. Olympic Judo training facility, and I’m very appreciative of what good Judoka can do to a person. I should note, though, that nothing hits harder than the ground and that a great portion of Judo techniques can be quite deadly when applied full-force on concrete rather than a training mat. However, I don’t see the logic behind choosing a method of preserving one’s life based on the ubiquitousness of the literature.

RE: “I do not accept your implication non-lethal combat is significantly less effective than lethal combat (unless you have some “passive” MA training to back such statements up.)”. Gotcha covered. Black belts in TKD and Tang Soo Do, most of both of which is non-lethal. Shodan in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, which perhaps surprisingly DOES include quite a bit of non-lethal material, despite the Hollywood stereotype. Three years private instruction in Aikido under Hokoru Isshimatsu; that’s about as non-lethal as they come in terms of strategy. And of course 19 years of internal arts training.

Now all that’s great, and control techniques definitely DO have their place (not all confrontations involve life-or-death combat). However, if two people are in a fight, it only takes one of them to decide that it’s lethal combat, and if your assailant makes that decision, you’d BETTER be able to respond in kind, especially if weapons are involved and/or the lives of those in your charge are at stake.

Bottom line here is that all techniques fall generally into one of three categories: escape, control, or destruction. All have their appropriate contexts. It’s a matter of applying the appropriate tool to the job at hand, and I feel sorry for the poor sap who can’t judge when to use which one.

Aha. I just noticed the pm button on the general kung fu forum; however, it’s not present in this forum. Odd…

Hi Lode Runner.

Still going through my archive for the footage of the Tai Chi vs the White Crane fight. Ended in a draw.

Tai Chi in Combat is nasty.

Most peple can’t see the Martial Application during the Forms as there are many that can be done from each Posture. Also the speed of the execution deceives a lot of people.

Also a lot of people are deceived by the Posture names.

Even my Sifu doesn’t show me ALL the possible applications, but rather gives us a few and lets us work out the rest.

Here is my understanding of some attack possibilities in Postures:

“Crowing **** stands on one Leg”
In this move we can execute a Finger point strike to the top of the Throat, sorry don’t have pressure point number handy.
“Stroke Pea****'s tail”
In this sequence we have one move where we take the attackers head and slam it downward into our upward travelling knee.
“Push Square style”
Here the lower hand attacks the Opponent with a Throat grab while the other Hand blocks the descending attack.
“Punch ears with both fists”
Here we use a fist with middle finger sticcking out to attack 2 pressure points at the ears.

“Horse foot punch”.
Here we twist a fist with middle finger sticcking out upwards into the lower jaw or upper throat.

Sorry, Posture names might vary to other styles. Also since my style is mixed our attacks might vary.

Hope this helps.

Chris:

>RE: “What IS Tai Chi Chuan? Who the hell do I believe?”. Well, for starters, I would be heavily disinclined to embrace/adopt the opinion of those who cannot even demonstrate any martial applications or, worse yet, don’t even know that there ARE martial applications to Taiji.<

The teachers did bring up the martial aspect, though. That’s why the receptionist’s confusion was so startling… because she otherwise seemed to be fairly knowledgable.

So the verdict is yes, it’s the same “yin-heavy watered down crap” but at least they do eventually teach at least some of the martial aspect (though they stressed that this was totally optional.) If I decide I want some more reliable skills (and I think I have the extra time to spare) I’ll probably either go for Judo or Wah Lum (no sense in going to different schools if it turns out I like their other style as well.) But I simply don’t have the time right now to interview a dozen people or sit through a thousand classes or fly to China and trace Taji back to it’s roots just so I can find the ultimate school that teaches “real” Tai Chi Chuan. I wasn’t expecting it to be very newbie-friendly but this just ridiculous.

Oh yeah, one last thing: I asked one of the Sifus about Yang vs. Chen styles (which – in writing – they both claim to teach) and the answer I got ended with “…but we teach government style here, which is a slightly simplified form of blahblahblah (my confusion at this point made me miss the rest of her explanation)…” Do you have any idea what she was talking about?

>No, I have simply contextualized it properly. Where control techniques are what is called for, it is the right tool for the job.<

If aggressive strikes are the proper tool for control techniques, then what is Judo good for? I always thought that joint locks and deflections and such gave you better control than mere blows ever could. The more aggressive you are the more vulnerable you are. In a self-DEFENSE situation, it’s better to sacrifice power for defensive ability. At what other time would you suggest do so… when one attacks?

Red_fists:

>Sorry, Posture names might vary to other styles. Also since my style is mixed our attacks might vary.

Hope this helps.<

Well ok, so ya punch people. But what exactly is the focus of the style? Beyond thinking about your posture and your Chi, what do you concentrate on? Is it all about pressing your attack or is it more reactive in nature? I.e., if mr. thug is in the middle of punching me, do I block his punch and then “return fire”, do I quickly attack at the same moment to take advantage of his vulnerability, do I grab his arm and deflect it or put him into some sort of lock, or do I dodge out of the way and attack from a different vector? If I am the typical “real” Tai Chi practitioner, what would be my most common course of action?

Oh yeah, one last thing: I asked one of the Sifus about Yang vs. Chen styles which – in writing – they both claim to teach) and the answer I got ended with “…but we teach government style here, which is a slightly simplified form of blahblahblah (my confusion at this point made me miss the rest of her explanation)…” Do you have any idea what she was talking about

Goverment style would in that case I assume be 24 Posture forms.

A shortented form of the 108 Yang Form, No Chens influence AFAIK.

This form was devloped to promote health, not rally for martial purpose.
But I might be wrong.

Well ok, so ya punch people. But what exactly is the focus of the style? Beyond thinking about your posture and your Chi, what do you concentrate on? Is it all about pressing your attack or is it more reactive in nature? I.e., if mr. thug is in the middle of punching me, do I block his punch and then “return fire”, do I quickly attack at the same moment to take advantage of his vulnerability, do I grab his arm and deflect it or put him into some sort of lock, or do I dodge out of the way and attack from a different vector? If I am the typical “real” Tai Chi practitioner, what would be my most common course of action? [/B]

My Examples only mentioned the attack portion, full examples get way longer.

In my style we train to deflect/neutralise the attack and than counter at the same time.

The counter varies and can include a punch, strike, lock or throw.

I will see if I can hunt some online articles up for you with full examples, as I am not good at explaining.

Hi Lode_Runner.

Check this 3 short Articles out.

Application of Grasp Sparrow/Bird Tail

Application of Taiji

Flowing Chracteristics of Taiji.

The show some ways in which Tai Chi can be applied in both Picture and word.

They can epxlain it much better than I can as the author is a grandmaster, compared to me lowly Student.

Seeya.

sorry…

I would’ve replied sooner, but it’s been a hellova week. On the bright side, though, it has been the perfect week to start my Tai Chi classes. I just managed to avoid letting the stress get to me (that flowing hand meditation stance which I can’t remember the name of is great) which is why I was able to react in a calm manner when my boss completely chewed me out for something that was not my fault.

Anyway, two of the SiHings and the Sifu asked me to tell them why I choose Tai Chi specifically and when I responded that I was in need of more coordination and focus, they were very quick to point out the martial applications and reinforce that it was definitely a “real” martial art. This pleased me (oh and I’ve also managed to gather that this “government style” is merely the stuff they teach to beginners; they do teach all of the Yang and Chen forms), but it makes the receptionist’s comments all the more strange, because I also found out that she is SiMo as well. Anyway, I’m going to my second class tomorrow and will try push hands for the first time. I’m really interested in this part; my mom has a old friend who is a reike healer and while I’m not sold on chi/ki being “real” yet, my experiences with her have definitely piqued my interest.

red_fists:

Thanks a lot for the articles; they seem to support what my vision of Tai Chi has been all along. The moves you listed seemed to all be reactive in nature (I’ve given up using the term “passive”) and while I’m sure proactive moves do exist (because it simply isn’t practical to wait for your opponent to attack every time), these articles also show how the aggressive/lethal element in Tai Chi is more optional than it is elsewhere. There’s a big difference between having to check your punch and knocking your opponent down (instead of knocking him down AND punching/dislocating a joint.)

greyseal - The Tai Chi Question

Greyseal -

I think, from my experience, that it depends on the instructor and what his goals are at the time. My Chen instructor made sure we knew Lao Jia Yi, externally/internally, before showing any application. Sometimes I had the feeling he didn’t want to show applications. But about two years later, he only showed us certain applications. He did not show the whole form.

                                      xiaotiema

"If I am the typical “real” Tai Chi practitioner, what would be my most common course of action?”

A very difficult question with a relatively simple answer, it may be one that you don’t want to hear.

I have found finding the typical real TC player depends on the level of the player, teacher and style, each answer that you get reflects this.

In my experience the main practice centers on knowing what and how to deal with force.

At the higher levels the shape and intent of the force is not so important because the art has moved beyond one of external tech to one of internal principles. just as the outer form is not so important it is only a way to practice and express the inner practice.

depending on the skill and depth of the teacher any TC form can lead you there.

Many teachers will not show or teach tech because I think they feel it leads in the wrong direction, people tend to get locked into
useing this for that and so one. If you look at each form as an expression of following, releasing, open and closing then you can see what the “real” practice is about regardless of use.

luck in the way :slight_smile: