I was just wondering, since I’ve read in many places and they seem to differ in opinion on the arts that Choy Lay Fut was created off of.
I’ve heard Fut Ga, Hung Ga, Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and then some other styles, and also Northern styles.
Can anyone clarify?
Choy Fook=“Choy family” style but not the same as famous 5 families styles (as in Hung, Lay, Lau, Choy and Mak).
(Apparently, Choy Fook studied kung fu at the Northern Shaolin temple and you see the influence in Choy Lay Fut with the long arm technqiues. I see a lot of similarities in Choy Lay Fut with Tong Bei Quan and Pi Qua Quan. )
Lay Yau San=Same style as Lay Ga of famous 5 families.
These are pretty much agreed upon.
Some people would say that Choy Lay Fut was also contributed to by:
Ching Cho Wo Sheun=“Green Grass Monk” who taught Jeong Yim and/or Chan Heung depending on who you talk to. Chan Family claims that Choy Fook and Ching Cho Wo Sheun are the same person.
Chan Yuen Woo=Chan Heung’s uncle. Apparently he studied Fut Ga which is most likely a generic term for Buddha or “Shaolin” Boxing and not the “Fut Ga” style which is practiced in the U.S. Many styles could qualify as Fut Ga, any with a link to the Southern Shaolin temple including Hung Ga.
Anyways, the history becomes pretty murky once you go back more than a few generations and what people spout off as fact has more to do with politics than with reality.
You’ll see a lot of similarities between all Southern “horse riding” styles…ie Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga, Hung Fut, etc. I think there was a lot of “cross pollination” amongst these styles so it is not always clear where something came from. Also, it is likely that some Northern styles, Lama Kung Fu and other influences crept in there.
People talk about “mixed martial arts” but Choy Lay Fut is the original in this sense. Picking up what works and discarding what doesn’t, yet somehow integrating it into a coherent system.
I’m happy to answer any other questions on-line, here or via email, as I’d rather spend class time training CLF rather than talking about it.
See you in class…BTW, your gloves are on the way 
Fu-Pow, I think 7 star mantis might have a prior claim there 
I’ve read some sources that suggest that prior to the publication of Lam Sai Wing’s work, Fut Gar, Nan Sil Lum and Hung Kuen were all pretty interchangeable terms.
I think when you look at some of the fundamentals of CLF, there’s very obviously a Hung Kuen base, however stances such as Quai Ma and Tau Ma are far more common in northern styles than southern, and their usage in CLF is very northern. Also, the patterns and structure of CLF techniques bear many northern hallmarks. This is also true as the forms progress. If you look at the Bot Gwa forms, they contain some techniques with a very northern flavour.
Unfortunately most of us don’t really know what Li Gar looks like, so it’s very hard for us to comment on it’s influence (Shaolin Master knows it, but he’s not around much) which is frustrating as it’s the only one everyone agrees on :mad:
Ya know i was reading a website(choy lee fut) either from hong kong or china that claims Choy Lee Fut substituted for the five families.
okay, thanks bye bye
Don’t get that started again…
Choy Fook and Ching Cho are nowhere near one and the same. There is a major mistake in their perception of who he really is. In actuality, Ching Cho a.k.a. Cai DeZhong or Choy DakJung is much bigger than just being Jeong Yim’s teacher, and contributor to the Choy Lee Fut Style.
But that’s for later.
hsk
Well I already qualified my comment about Ching Cho Wo Sheun so I won’t do it again here.
aaahh comon, you cant leave us in suspense liek this! Tell us more 
sorry fu pow,
it’s just that i have found numerous sites that mention the green grass monk and his involvement with the revolution, and is no longer just a myth within the Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut branch.
Movies such as “5 fighters from shaolin, and burning of the shaolin temple” focus on the 5 southern masters Fong Dai Hung, Cai Dezhong, Wu Dak Dai and so on.
i hope to start up a webpage and put the info i have put together and get it out there. or it will just go into one of my books. not sure yet.
frank
SOme facts about Green Grass Monk
Ok, i will list what I have discovered so far. but if this turns negative, i am out of here like last year.
CHing Cho was the monesterial name of Cai Dezhong (choy Dak Jung, tsai te chung.)–not Choy Fook.
He also went by the name of Monk Um Ging. - not choy fook.
Cai Dezhong was a Die hard Ming supproter and worshipped Hung Wu/hung Mou during the reign of Emperor Qian Long (1736-1795).–sorry i had to recheck my notes.
At the Shaolin Temple Cai DeZhong ran the 36 chambers, and possibly created the Lohan Hall, no way to verify that now.
He as a high level disciple of Abbott Gee Simm, and took over 108 fighting monks after the passing of Gee Simm.
He is the one who is known to have killed the traitor Ma Chut.
He is also in charge of the Fut Pai Hung Mun which was a secret society inside the Shaolin Temple. there revolutionaries all met up and trained in their gung fuwhile hiding from the officials.
After the burning of the temple he and the other 4 masters went on to become the 5 ancestors (founders) of the Hung Mun Secret society with Cai DeZhong in the Chief position and it was they that started the Slogan Fan CHing Fo Ming.
Monk Ching Cho (Cai DeZhong) then taught Jeong Yim and later changed his name to reflect his loyalty to the hung society by adopting the name Hung Sing using the hung in Hung Mun but with the word victory-infering that the Hung society will win the fight.
THe hung SIng (Great Sage Hung) that the Chan family branch uses is not the same or nearly the same as Jeong Yim’s Hung Sing (victory to the Hung Society) given to Jeong Yim by the Green Grass Monk.
okay, that all for now, are you happy? 
frank
OK, I REALLY don’t want to be negative here, but the Ming Dynasty ended in 1644 and Jeong Yim lived in the mid 1800s.
So was the “Hung-Sing” Hung Mun the same as Hung Gar’s “Hung” society?
Also I thought that CLF was based off of Hung Gar as well.
q!736
Sorry, made a mistake and fixed it.
9
Cai Dezhong existed during the reign of Emperor Qian Loong (1736-1796) most likely during the later part of the century.
now, Jeong Yim was born around 1814 and by the age of 17 in 1831 until 1836-37 he trained under the Green Grass Monk.
Where ben did you get that he didn’t arrive until the mid 1800’s (1850’s)?
I hope you didn’t get that from Doc Fai!?
if Cai dezhong existed during the latter part of the century and that jeong yim studied with him until 1836-7 it makes sense to me.
i was just going off of memory and had to check my notes.
now, remember something, the information i have on the Green Grass monk comes from various sites of other styles who have no idea that the green grass monk is a big part of hung sing history.
frank
The late 1830’s would usually be considered the mid 1800s, being in the middle third :rolleyes: I never said arrived anyway, I said around 
infrazael,
yes the Hung Ga “hung” and the Hung from Hung Mun are the same characters.
off hand, i’m not sure, but the “3” ticks on the left hand side also represents “Heaven, Earth, and Man” -the TiandiHui.
The current “hung” used in our branch today still has the “3” ticks on the left hand side as well which is a secret reference to the Tiandihui.
In an actual Hung Mun Society, the “3” ticks on the left is on the top of the character but somehow is still the same word.
frank
So was Hung Gar also in the mix when CLF was created?
You must understand that if jeong yim was heavily involved in the revolution, then quiet was kept for so long. being caught meant instant death.
Put it this way, if you were part of the Secret Societies and one of their rules were to keep quiet and you disobeyed their rules what do you think would happen?
What do you think would have happened to Jeong Yim if he were caught by the Ching Government? or to any freedom fighter of that period during that time?
Ya know what bothers me, is that people believe the chan family about “our” founder, when “our founder” was alive until 1893, was alive and well and able to pass down his own history to his students.
keep it lightweight now,
hsk
Is everyone going to ignore my question?
Infrazael,
chan Heung first started learning his gung fu from Chan Yuen Wu, supposedly a master of Hung Ga, so Chan Heung did get his start in Hung Ga, yes.
Does hung ga have anything to do with Choy Lee Fut, i can’t say. they do look so much alike but with different emphasis on strength and horse stance and such.
still, the only hung ga that has to do with CLF is through Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Heung, not Choy Fook, Lee Yau San, or Monk Ching CHo. the Green Grass Monk was a master of the Fut Ga style.
why do you ask?
frank
Because Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut look so ****ed similar to the naked eye.
There has to be some connection there.
Yes and no. What we know today as “Hung Ga” as in “Tiger and Crane Boxing” did not even exist in its present form when Choy Lay Fut was created. (Apparently, the “Crane” in Tiger and Crane wasn’t added until later, supposedly by the wife of Wong Fei Hung.)
What did exist was something like “Hung Ga” that supposedly came from the Southern Shaolin Temple. Like all Shaolin derived styles it probably would have been called Fut Ga or “Buddha Family” boxing. So to say that Chan Yuen Woo practiced Hung Ga might be a bit misleading.
As stated before all the “horse riding” southern styles share similar roots so you will see alot of crossover between styles this includes Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga (Hung Tao Choy Mei), Hung Fut and probably others…
BTW, I did see somebody perform a Lay/Li Ga form at Norman Chin’s anniversary party in NYC a few years back. I’m not sure if it was THE Lay Ga or was just called that because it came from someone with the surname Lay/Li. If I recall the stances were not very low and the form looked very loose and relaxed.