P.s. remember, knives are the ‘quiet ones’. Quick one the knife. Dead before you know it.(old British bare knuckle saying) If you read police reports of the old west, despite concern over ‘dueling’ issues ,and big shoot outs,knife fighting death’s were much more common and seen hard to deal with.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1167531]Unless you train against an aggressive opponent coming at you wildly and with intent to kill all the theory in the world won’t help you. And neither will the theory of ANY martial art. To believe otherwise is delusional blind following. I can prove what I say very easily. I’m in NYC and can use a marker to prove my point to any man regardless of his style or ability and so can any untrained knife fighter.[/QUOTE]
I agree, I asked my instructor when I started training about how to deal with a knife, he said not to take your eyes off it, as he picked up a pen and said try to take the pen or block his strikes…I was covered in ink ;).
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1167529]Clothing can be used against knives. But hang on. In the vid, the victim seems to have cloth in his hand but is helpless to use it. Ya’ll probly gathered, I’m a vegetarian now but I wear an old leather jacket some times from the old days, from before I went tofu. The thing smells like a steak and a half smoked cigar. A leather jacket or some other fabric can help defend against a knife…maybe…[/QUOTE]
The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.
You will simply die if you carry the mindset of “Self-Defense” against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy (“self-offense” as opposed to “self-defence”) and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you’ll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.
In KL22, our very first goal is “”, which means “destroying the opponent’s (physical and psychological) momentum”. The mindset is “”, which means “extinguish immediately upon intrusion”. As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.
Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1167538]In KL22, our very first goal is “”, which means “destroying the opponent’s (physical and psychological) momentum”. The mindset is “”, which means “extinguish immediately upon intrusion”. As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.[/QUOTE]
One of my training brothers, while working for a gang as a bouncer, was attacked by 6 men with machetes. He injured three, and killed the other three. While he pleaded “self defence”, he got “man slaughter” (based on witnesses accounts he was chopping them even when they were down) because of the “excessive use of violence” and got 15yrs in a corrupt Chinese jail.
Reflection of the KL mindset.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1167538]The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.
You will simply die if you carry the mindset of “Self-Defense” against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy (“self-offense” as opposed to “self-defence”) and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you’ll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.
In KL22, our very first goal is “”, which means “destroying the opponent’s (physical and psychological) momentum”. The mindset is “”, which means “extinguish immediately upon intrusion”. As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.
Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.[/QUOTE]
that is the reality one needs to face…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1167542]that is the reality one needs to face…[/QUOTE]
Hendrik…glad to see you weigh in on this subject.
to all… the problem is… you have to do something…it’s ****ing happining…if you don’t have a weapon and action of equal or better value,Plus drew it out in time, all you have is what’s there…and you. Get to it. saying your dead already…you’re dead already.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1167538]The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.
You will simply die if you carry the mindset of “Self-Defense” against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy (“self-offense” as opposed to “self-defence”) and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you’ll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.
In KL22, our very first goal is “”, which means “destroying the opponent’s (physical and psychological) momentum”. The mindset is “”, which means “extinguish immediately upon intrusion”. As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.
Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.[/QUOTE]
sounds like,your asuming completly suprise situation. Even more reason to see potential in environment and found weapon. Or your right, your skrewed.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1167542]that is the reality one needs to face…[/QUOTE]
lucky me I lived…twice.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1167543]Hendrik…glad to see you weigh in on this subject.
to all… the problem is… you have to do something…it’s ****ing happining…if you don’t have a weapon and plan of equal or better value,Pulse drew it out in time, all you have is what’s there…and you. Get to it.[/QUOTE]
I dont like this subject because I am a Buddhist, these stuffs are attracting these stuffs the more one talk about it. so, it is better to keep one away from it by not attracting it.
I dont like this subject because I have to pay my karma for the past life. even I win I lost. not interested to create more karma and suffer next life.
So, it is better to pray everyday for good and attract good. I rather we all pray ---- inhale love, exhale peace instead of fill the mind with these stuffs.
May everyone is in love, peace, and joy.
I respect…but it’s different for others…their lives and responsibilities…
the older I am the more I look at the so called martial art and thinking. you must be kidding.
where ever you go…there you are
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1167536]I agree, I asked my instructor when I started training about how to deal with a knife, he said not to take your eyes off it, as he picked up a pen and said try to take the pen or block his strikes…I was covered in ink ;).[/QUOTE]That’s the Sharpie test. In Canada known as the Magic Marker Test.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1167539]One of my training brothers, while working for a gang as a bouncer, was attacked by 6 men with machetes. He injured three, and killed the other three. While he pleaded “self defence”, he got “man slaughter” (based on witnesses accounts he was chopping them even when they were down) because of the “excessive use of violence” and got 15yrs in a corrupt Chinese jail.
Reflection of the KL mindset.[/QUOTE]
good for him. if you want to know how 99.9 % of people who faced a machete attack ended up, just go to a good ‘gore’ sight. They usually have a whole section devoted to stupid buggers and their encounters with machetes.
You are all missing the boat. You can not always expect to be attacked by someone with a knife or you would likely arm yourself. Fights, and anything involving a knife is going to be something you least expect. Otherwise you would not be there in the first place. Practicing to defend against a knife is really a good idea. Chances are you are going to get cut or stabbed, so what do you do? Do you stand there and take it like a man? Or do you try to defend yourself? If you decide to defend yourself, what do you do then? What if you can’t run? What if he is faster than you and can outrun you? What if you are cornered? You have to make some sort of effort or you are certainly going to get it in the neck. So you get cut or stabbed in the process? At least you didn’t stand there and let him do it.
I have been stabbed front and back. Cut in a few places and stabbed in a few more. Even been shot a couple of times. I have never been in a fight against a knife that I didn’t get stuck or cut. It is pretty much going to happen. The idea here is to reduce the number and seriousness of the cuts you do recieve. It is common practice here to condemn the efforts of others, but I personally believe everyone should at least have some sort of hand against knife defense so that they can make that effort if they are place in that position.
When I have been cut or stabbed I was not even aware of the knife. Well, except once, and I did use my Tshirt wrapped around my hand to deflect and defend against the knife. I still got it right completely through my hand. Did quite a bit of damage, but I was able to then take control of his knife hand and punish him for it. That could easily have gone either way.
My recommendation. Learn several techniques that could possibly work for you and practice or train it. It might not save you, and you might not ever need it, but there is always that possibility and you would not want to be without at least some measure of defense.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1167552]You are all missing the boat. You can not always expect to be attacked by someone with a knife or you would likely arm yourself. Fights, and anything involving a knife is going to be something you least expect. Otherwise you would not be there in the first place. Practicing to defend against a knife is really a good idea. Chances are you are going to get cut or stabbed, so what do you do? Do you stand there and take it like a man? Or do you try to defend yourself? If you decide to defend yourself, what do you do then? What if you can’t run? What if he is faster than you and can outrun you? What if you are cornered? You have to make some sort of effort or you are certainly going to get it in the neck. So you get cut or stabbed in the process? At least you didn’t stand there and let him do it.
I have been stabbed front and back. Cut in a few places and stabbed in a few more. Even been shot a couple of times. I have never been in a fight against a knife that I didn’t get stuck or cut. It is pretty much going to happen. The idea here is to reduce the number and seriousness of the cuts you do recieve. It is common practice here to condemn the efforts of others, but I personally believe everyone should at least have some sort of hand against knife defense so that they can make that effort if they are place in that position.
When I have been cut or stabbed I was not even aware of the knife. Well, except once, and I did use my Tshirt wrapped around my hand to deflect and defend against the knife. I still got it right completely through my hand. Did quite a bit of damage, but I was able to then take control of his knife hand and punish him for it. That could easily have gone either way.
My recommendation. Learn several techniques that could possibly work for you and practice or train it. It might not save you, and you might not ever need it, but there is always that possibility and you would not want to be without at least some measure of defense.[/QUOTE]
thanks for your honesty. but I don’t think we’re missing the boat
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1167546]I dont like this subject because I am a Buddhist, these stuffs are attracting these stuffs the more one talk about it. so, it is better to keep one away from it by not attracting it.
I dont like this subject because I have to pay my karma for the past life. even I win I lost. not interested to create more karma and suffer next life.
So, it is better to pray everyday for good and attract good. I rather we all pray ---- inhale love, exhale peace instead of fill the mind with these stuffs.
May everyone is in love, peace, and joy.[/QUOTE]
Burying the head in the sand does not make anything go away. I choose to do martial arts; that’s the path, that’s the karma. If one doesn’t want to learn about violence and how to deal with violence, might as well just do Fantasy Fu or go Cha-Cha instead (there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that).
Not really into all those love, peace, joy, violence, anger, good vs evil stuff. I don’t think. I just do.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1167529]Clothing can be used against knives. But hang on. In the vid, the victim seems to have cloth in his hand but is helpless to use it. Ya’ll probly gathered, I’m a vegetarian now but I wear an old leather jacket some times from the old days, from before I went tofu. The thing smells like a steak and a half smoked cigar. A leather jacket or some other fabric can help defend against a knife…maybe…[/QUOTE]
Just for clarity, I don’t mean just wearing one (duh). In hapkido, one of our basic weapons is the belt. Any cloth/fabric can be used like a belt for smothering, choking,snapping cross checking and so on. Not much help but if that’s all ya got. One of my fellows got knocked right out with a snap across the throat. I was suprised. Remember the Thuggee?Masters of the silk in a land of parangs and wicked sharp weapons.This technology is quite advanced, and well tested. Jacket is usually better, seeing that your attacker might not wait for you to take your belt off and hitch yer pants up.
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1167509]I’ve alway’s had a soft spot in my heart for sifu Todd Shawn Tai. having said that, obviously, these solutions to knife attacks are…ehem…rubbish. But so are 90 % of other VT solutions to this aggressive, massive, death dealing attack. U know, all things being equal…street wise…I’ll take a gun scene over a knife scene any day.The Mexican prayre man…;God, don’t let me be killed by the knife;. The personallity of the knife is brutal in the extreme.I’ve survived two knife attacks in my life… both left me scarred and barely alive. And wiser.
http://youtu.be/D0jwpwzGpGQ
This is even more revealing than the first. Have any of you done the ‘sharpie’ test? Some things in VT ARE actually truly suicidal in this…such as jum sao (sinking hand) great for difusing power in a punch,with knife in hand, useless.Thanks…Great eye opener…Nice contact high.
P.S. Ya know, concidering the fact we have the baat Chum Dao in our line up… you’d think we’d be alittle more savy when it comes to knives.[/QUOTE]
In the part two clip, I honestly think this guy has a pretty reasonable logic in divieing up priority on how to aproach stratagy. It’s worth another look.
Wing Chun blades are never seen…
You might be surprised but I’m kinda behind Hendrik on this one. Not that I am Buddhist, but I do understand the nature of discussion and as far as I can see on this thread the discussion has not even entered the realms of what we can do ourselves with our own blades, and we are already attempting to try to defend other more ‘rage-like’ attacks with ‘daggers’ and ‘machetes’. 
I have never once seen ANY OF YOU post anything visual that is based on how we use our Wing Chun blades, so in a sense that old saying “Wing Chun blades are never seen” really runs true!! The more you go into this discussion the messier it will get and in the end everyone will turn to the filipino daggers to supplement what they don’t know about our own weapon. Sad really, but this has happend across Europe already.
There is a remoresless attitude that must be present when you train the knives, and this is where I feel Hendriks concern as he is a practising Buddhist. This remorseless behaviour did not originate in Shaolin, nor the Red Boats or the streets of Hong Kong!! It originated in Warfare, so I would be more interetsed to hear from people that have such experience, like Phil. How to ‘switch on and off’ is a military thing and not something for the hobby martial artist having fun in the class. Seems right then that the knives are closely guarded and never shown to outsiders.
In my day ‘knife defense’ meant that you learnt very specific sets that ‘defended your own blades!’ because there is nothing worse than having your knife taken away in the blink of an eye. Empty hand defense against a knife is non-existent in my learning. We called it method no.36… RUN!!!