A lot of people now days teaches gun disarming techniques . According to my experience gun disarming is a nonsense , there is no way to defend your self against a man who is holding a gun and is ready to shoot . I have picked randomly a video form Youtube , this what majority of instructors are teaching .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmQk3DnTcSs
any thoughts about this ..?
[QUOTE=zuti car;1269924]A lot of people now days teaches gun disarming techniques . According to my experience gun disarming is a nonsense , there is no way to defend your self against a man who is holding a gun and is ready to shoot . I have picked randomly a video form Youtube , this what majority of instructors are teaching .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmQk3DnTcSs
any thoughts about this ..?[/QUOTE]
Zuti, I’m not sure why you posted this on the WC forum, but here’s my response, if I may paraphrase your own words:
“…there is no truly reliable way to defend yourself against a man who is holding a gun and is ready to shoot .”
IMO gun defenses are desperate measures resorted to as a last ditch option. As you mentioned, if someone is really ready to shoot, your odds of success are very low. And if they also keep four or five feet of distance between themselves and you, your odds are close to zero.
A question to the both of you, do you think the risks are similar against someone with a blade?
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1269928]Zuti, I’m not sure why you posted this on the WC forum,.[/QUOTE]
Because Wing Chun is omnipotent force which gives a strength and ability of a demigod and has answers to all and every problem. I am joking , where should I post it , if this is not a proper place moderator can put where it belongs
[QUOTE=zuti car;1269932]Because Wing Chun is omnipotent force which gives a strength and ability of a demigod and has answers to all and every problem. I am joking , where should I post it , if this is not a proper place moderator can put where it belongs[/QUOTE]
True enough. I just thought it was a more general topic. I thought this forum was reserved for personal bickering between WC practitioners. LOL
@ Paddington: IMO knives are also some scary stuff. And lot of time people are knifed before they perceive the threat. So with either weapon, if someone is brandishing it and threatening you, they may not intend to use it, at least not immediately. That gives you a better chance to react. Regardless, I don’t like the odds of going empty-handed against either weapon. But if that’s all you have… well better HTFU! LOL
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1269975]True enough. I just thought it was a more general topic. I thought this forum was reserved for personal bickering between WC practitioners. LOL
@ Paddington: IMO knives are also some scary stuff. And lot of time people are knifed before they perceive the threat. So with either weapon, if someone is brandishing it and threatening you, they may not intend to use it, at least not immediately. That gives you a better chance to react. Regardless, I don’t like the odds of going empty-handed against either weapon. But if that’s all you have… well better HTFU! LOL[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the reply Grumblegeezer. On Monday I did some training with a partner who had a training knife and yes it was very difficult. The best I could do was just to block and strike at the same time, mainly garn/gang sau and a strike. It seemed to work well, that is reading the first blade strike, but so much seemed dependent upon my initial strike causing enough impact to allow a follow up. But even here when my partner would conceal the blade so I did not know which hand it was in, it was still so artificial in that I knew an attack would be forthcoming.
For other people’s interest by concealed I would leave the room and he would place it in a pocket of his jacket or palm it etc. to try to get some jump on me. Yes, I got cut a few times.
It is not the first time I have done this type of training but the surprise element, as best as we could manage, meant I very rarely went to grabbing techniques to control his arm. Before I did this type of training I always had in mind bui jee but in the moment it did not really materialise.
[QUOTE=Paddington;1269976]Thanks for the reply Grumblegeezer. On Monday I did some training with a partner who had a training knife and yes it was very difficult. The best I could do was just to block and strike at the same time, mainly garn/gang sau and a strike. It seemed to work well, that is reading the first blade strike, but so much seemed dependent upon my initial strike causing enough impact to allow a follow up. But even here when my partner would conceal the blade so I did not know which hand it was in, it was still so artificial in that I knew an attack would be forthcoming.
For other people’s interest by concealed I would leave the room and he would place it in a pocket of his jacket or palm it etc. to try to get some jump on me. Yes, I got cut a few times.
It is not the first time I have done this type of training but the surprise element, as best as we could manage, meant I very rarely went to grabbing techniques to control his arm. Before I did this type of training I always had in mind bui jee but in the moment it did not really materialise.[/QUOTE]
No. Stop it. Just stop. This is crazy.
[QUOTE=tc101;1269979]No. Stop it. Just stop. This is crazy.[/QUOTE]
Hey, if I saw someone pull a knife and I had enough time to run then that is what I would do. However, I have been stabbed before and had knives pulled on me a couple of times when I least expected it. I also occasionally do security work to pay the bills so I feel the need to train such scenarios and try to get them as close to what I have experienced in real life. I am not saying I have experienced every possibility but I can only go on my own experiences. I am, however, interested to know why you say what I cite above.
[QUOTE=Paddington;1269981]Hey, if I saw someone pull a knife and I had enough time to run then that is what I would do. However, I have been stabbed before and had knives pulled on me a couple of times when I least expected it. I also occasionally do security work to pay the bills so I feel the need to train such scenarios and try to get them as close to what I have experienced in real life. I am not saying I have experienced every possibility but I can only go on my own experiences. I am, however, interested to know why you say what I cite above.[/QUOTE]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0
Don’t think so?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E34km8-IpE
That’s what it is going to be like.
[QUOTE=tc101;1270012]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0
Don’t think so?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E34km8-IpE
That’s what it is going to be like.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have seen those videos before. Nothing you have indicated here has changed my mind; it is still worth practicing and everything I’ve said meets well with what you show. I do not deny the difficulty and acknowledge it in my first response. Again, your initial response is typical of your antagonistic behaviour.
[QUOTE=zuti car;1269924]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmQk3DnTcSs
any thoughts about this ..?[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t pass the smell test IMO…
[QUOTE=Paddington;1270013]Yes, I have seen those videos before. Nothing you have indicated here has changed my mind; it is still worth practicing and everything I’ve said meets well with what you show. I do not deny the difficulty and acknowledge it in my first response. Again, your initial response is typical of your antagonistic behaviour.[/QUOTE]
That was my typical initial response when I am confronted with people being unrealistic. Going to use a block and punch against a guy with a knife? You saw the videos you really think a block and punch is going to have any effect?
I do not understand a certain segments fascination with empty hand knife defense. I’ve been to loads of boxing gyms have been to loads of judo schools have been to a few mma gyms and have yet to see anyone there doing so called training with empty hand versus knife. They are more concerned with really training and developing realistic skills.
The other thing is I am a LEO and often work secondary security. So claims of so called working security I know means nothing more than often sitting around. It does not impress me and claims that you’ve been knifed and had knives pulled on you makes me think you are being dishonest. As I said I’m an LEO on the streets and work security and have for the past several years and never been stabbed or had any knives pulled on me. It’s the same for most of the guys I work with. I also think if you had real experience with knife attacks you would not be thinking of trying some thing as silly as blocking and punching. All this leads me to really wonder about you. I know Hendrik is dishonest and you are a big supporter and now you also are saying things that don’t sound kosher.
[QUOTE=tc101;1270019]That was my typical initial response when I am confronted with people being unrealistic. Going to use a block and punch against a guy with a knife? You saw the videos you really think a block and punch is going to have any effect?
I do not understand a certain segments fascination with empty hand knife defense. I’ve been to loads of boxing gyms have been to loads of judo schools have been to a few mma gyms and have yet to see anyone there doing so called training with empty hand versus knife. They are more concerned with really training and developing realistic skills.
The other thing is I am a LEO and often work secondary security. So claims of so called working security I know means nothing more than often sitting around. It does not impress me and claims that you’ve been knifed and had knives pulled on you makes me think you are being dishonest. As I said I’m an LEO on the streets and work security and have for the past several years and never been stabbed or had any knives pulled on me. It’s the same for most of the guys I work with. I also think if you had real experience with knife attacks you would not be thinking of trying some thing as silly as blocking and punching. All this leads me to really wonder about you. I know Hendrik is dishonest and you are a big supporter and now you also are saying things that don’t sound kosher.[/QUOTE]
I have had real life knife experiences and I share your frustrations at some instructors’ suggested methods for handling such attacks. As I said in my first post it is very difficult and the reason why, from what I naturally do, I said the first strike is important is because the knife is easily withdrawn and stabbed again as illustrated in those videos you posted and of which I have seen before. So, I already acknowledged and preempted your view point for it is one I share.
Given that you have not had any real life knife experiences, I am not sure how you feel qualified to comment with such authority as you do. I don’t claim authority despite having some of those real world experiences. I do not even go as far to say ‘this works’. Incidentally, I even had someone come at me with a machete once; I dodged and ran in this case. I have even had a gun pulled on me and I had no idea if it was fake or not but the adrenalin pump I had was very real indeed. That adrenaline pump was very similar to the one I had last Friday when the police pointed their MP5’s at me, with their laser sights’ dots bouncing off my chest. I have never been in a war zone, however, and seen the horrors that zuti has; I doubt very much that I could handle it.
Further, I am not fascinated with empty hand techniques versus a knife. I have just had some nasty experiences and sometimes find myself in dangerous situations, so I consider it wise and prudent to train as best I can. My life has depended on it and may continue to depend on it. As I said, my first response would be to always run or get out of harms way.
I do not know why you are mentioning Hendrik and I have been upfront and said, both publicly on these boards and to Hendrik privately, that I did not agree with his posturing and the direction he has taken. I think I understand why you are citing Hendrik and that is because you are being intentionally antagonistic and harrying me from thread to thread, for whatever reason that may be. I am not the only one you have done this to.
One training tip that I will stand by and share with you is reviewing videos such as you cite. Before I made the decision to work in security (which I have not done for long, all my real life knife experiences occurred before I trained to do security) one of the things I did was to review as many videos of fights, knife attacks etc. as I could. With regards to the knife attack videos, I made a simple tally chart in excell and had columns for each of the gates. I watched each video and tallied which gate was attacked as well as other bits of information that I won’t go into here. I then converted that data into probabilities i.e. the range 0 to 1. I found that a very useful exercise and it took me a very long time to compile the data.
I agree with you that there are many that are very disingenuous in their approach to defending against knives. Indeed, I remember talking to a JKD instructor that taught knife techniques, including Vs. empty hands, and I told him about my video collection. Having asked him if he had had any real life self defense experiences just before he took his class, he answered no and then went on to tell his students that he had watched lots of videos and compiled data; he said that turning to me looking very sheepish.
I feel like I have very little to prove to anyone anymore, except myself maybe, and it is disheartening to constantly have to question whether I should share my experiences or not because of the attitude and behaviours of some of the users of these very forums. I hope that situation can change, I really do.
EDIT: On the garn/gang sau and strike. The first time I was ever attacked with a knife was in a mugging situation on my way to visit a friend. I knocked him out when he went to stab me on my lower left side after I refused his demands to hand over my money. Could I repeat that? I have no idea. Not all knife situations are crazy people rushing in as you show in those videos. However, it does happen and it is very difficult to deal with.
About knife defense , I was stabbed one time by accident , some guys fought in a crowed and idiot missed the opponent and stabbed me . I was extremely lucky at the time ,I had strong metal cigarette box in my pocket and guy was drunk and he hit that cigarette box , everything happened so fast that I wasn’t aware what is going on until everything was over . About gun defense , I think it is a big mistake to try to disarm someone who is pointing a gun at you and still didn’t kill you , like in the robbing situation, there is much more chance to be shoot if you provoke the robber by attempt of disarming instead to give him money .
[QUOTE=zuti car;1270063]About knife defense , I was stabbed one time by accident , some guys fought in a crowed and idiot missed the opponent and stabbed me . I was extremely lucky at the time ,I had strong metal cigarette box in my pocket and guy was drunk and he hit that cigarette box , everything happened so fast that I wasn’t aware what is going on until everything was over . About gun defense , I think it is a big mistake to try to disarm someone who is pointing a gun at you and still didn’t kill you , like in the robbing situation, there is much more chance to be shoot if you provoke the robber by attempt of disarming instead to give him money .[/QUOTE]
I must admit to wanting to sit down with you over a cup of tea to listen to your experiences. I understand though that some of the horrors you have seen must be very difficult to talk about. I followed the conflicts in your country very closely at the time.
[QUOTE=Paddington;1270245]I must admit to wanting to sit down with you over a cup of tea to listen to your experiences. I understand though that some of the horrors you have seen must be very difficult to talk about. I followed the conflicts in your country very closely at the time.[/QUOTE]
If you ever come to Tainan , I will treat you lunch (if you can actually eat Chinese food) .
[QUOTE=zuti car;1270256]If you ever come to Tainan , I will treat you lunch (if you can actually eat Chinese food) .[/QUOTE]
That is a lovely offer, thanks.
