Eight Chopping Knives, dead or alive?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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On reflection and in response to questions asked by Sifu Robert Chu about my kung fu Uncles (Austin Goh) knife clip on Youtube, I thought that I would respond within my own thread as I think the discussion is worth having openly.

Personally, I’m more interested in how to train well in all areas of the art, and that involes taking the knowledge and images we have kept within the forms to another level completely. After meeting and presenting seminars with my Uncle recently I thought it was quite strange to be questioned so openly about something so personal to me.

Here goes :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=chusauli;1039305]Spencer,

All claims of using two foils to defeat an Olympic Fencer with one aside, is this the BJD form it as you know it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Looks like Yip Chun’s form to me. Is it the same as yours? If so, why the descrepancy?

He even wrote a book on it published by Paladin Press where he credits Yip Chun for the set.

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/books/a-c/austin-goh-butterfly-swords-2.jpg[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, which isn’t far at all really, how my Uncle learnt his knife form is his business :cool: What I will ask you is who you think taught Ip Chun the knife form? And why my Uncle would choose to learn from Ip Chun? Performance quality aside, and I do understand the criticisms, that’s still my Uncles business :wink: He is also still healthy and teaching in the UK and Europe.

As for what I know about the eight chopping knife, my Uncle didn’t teach me the form as I had the fortune to learn from another elder student of Lee Shing. And no, my knives do not look like my Uncles. Similar postures, different mechanics to move within them. That knowledge is in fact Jun Mo, not Ching Mo.

I will leave you to come to your own conclusions, but…

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039305]An FYI to some of you, shock knives hurt and they give you real feedback, grante dit is not getting 6" of steel in your gut, but the feed back is there.
Dull aluminum knives really freaking hurt ! [/QUOTE]

… I have felt this pain, luckily not on many occassions :smiley: And for the record, we all trained together. A group of 5 with many more students too. Jun Mo is known for it’s weaponry interactions and I’m honoured to say that I was a part of the schools history at that specific time. Stick to stick, stick to knife, ring to stick and all that jazz :wink:

How many others are still doing this? Daily :eek:

What have you practised with a knife in your hand?

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wot u gonna chop with that tiny ass knife? baby carrots?

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Thank you Spencer! That was heartfelt honesty. I also pay very much attention to what you did not say outright.

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Very much alive, you just need to understand how they work to make them a part of the system and not some ‘carrot’ you get at the end :wink:

We show the knife and pole in the first lesson to begining fighters, so they get the idea of tactics and ballistic force displacement early on. This way we can refer to the ideas straight away without picking them up 6months later, 2 years later 5 , 10…

When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1039412]Very much alive, you just need to understand how they work to make them a part of the system and not some ‘carrot’ you get at the end :wink:

We show the knife and pole in the first lesson to begining fighters, so they get the idea of tactics and ballistic force displacement early on. This way we can refer to the ideas straight away without picking them up 6months later, 2 years later 5 , 10…

When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?[/QUOTE]

They are never a carrot, however if they are incorporated too early they destroy the ability to learn the empty hands properly.

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BS right there…I’m talking about HOW to use knives to fight, strategy employed by both knife and bare hand, to a complete beginner. Its pointless giving them the knives to early, not for the ‘hands’ but the footwork is so different…confusing.
The basic cuts and stabbing with high low turning are shown to student as early on as they can handle it, without confusing them. That’s an ‘individual’ learning curve decision, not a fixed time-line set by anyone but a coach and his /her student.
It helps to develop basic actions and motor coordination, they ‘already have’ the strategy and know the fighting ideas of a face-off with an equally armed, or barehanded opponent for several years in their minds and using to spar barehanded…crazy idea:rolleyes: to tell a student on the first day the fighting strategy from the knives also applies to our sparring with fists.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1039411]Thank you Spencer! That was heartfelt honesty. I also pay very much attention to what you did not say outright.[/QUOTE]

If you have paid attention, and appreciate honesty, can you at least answer my questions? Call me curious George, but I’m also intrigued to know what you think I didn’t say outright?

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1039411]When did your sifu explain the knife tactics and their relationship to bare hand fighting ?[/QUOTE]

Pretty early on from what I can remember, but I don’t think it was ‘tactical’ so much. The way you seem to separate the movement with the knife footwork as being totally alien to a beginner really doesn’t make sense to me either. I’ve found that quite common in WSL family, as there is a structured approach to learning the forms: BJD being the ultimate and final form. I didn’t learn Wing Chun in that way as my mobility work was learnt from day one and the forms just acted as a reminder of what I already knew. So much easier to learn that way from my experience.

I think you’ve also said before that you like to train with the strategy of the knife in the empty hand, which is fine as long as you understand the restrictions and distancing differences. Trying to slice the inside tendons of elbows with your finger nails isn’t really a good idea imho, but a good solid chop works wonders either way :wink:

And just to pull something from another thread:

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Dale, what is your opinion on these guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oam4l...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spG1ENQHwzk

[QUOTE=knifefighter;1039411]They are on the right track, although they need to incorporate ground fighting because that’s often where it will end up.

With the approach they are using, in about 6 months time they will all be 10x better than someone who sits around practicing butterfly knife sets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw [/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, stabbing knives (normally double edged) have nothing whatsoever to do with what we practice in Wing Chun. It isn’t a great idea to even compare the training as the clips you share Dale were also described as developing very ‘bad habits’ which I agree with.

In the UK we have a growing Doce Pares community who compete like this with double stick too and they’re superb in their field, against eachother, but I just don’t think it can compare with the BJD. I would prefer to get stabbed once knowing that you will lose your head or at least a limb in the process! :smiley:

Joking aside, why do people feel that clips put up on Youtube reflect the skill level of a practitioner?? And why all the Austin Goh bashing?? :mad: He has constantly promoted Wing Chun for over forty years and was doing stuff in the eighties that is being promoted today as more mainland or dare I say ‘authentic’ WCK! Ask yourself what have YOU done for Wing Chun?

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Do you carry your BJD’s around with you ??

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039503]Do you carry your BJD’s around with you ??[/QUOTE]

Yeah right!! In London?? :eek:

They are only carried in my minds eye these days, but I do remember training a lot with them tucked into my sash :D;) But I was also a flag waving, uniformed lunatic in my day :eek:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1039505]Yeah right!! In London?? :eek:

They are only carried in my minds eye these days, but I do remember training a lot with them tucked into my sash :D;) But I was also a flag waving, uniformed lunatic in my day :eek:[/QUOTE]

What do you carry with you? what type of knife?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039506]What do you carry with you? what type of knife?[/QUOTE]

Are you serious dude?? This is LONDON, ENGLAND :rolleyes:

I have never really felt the need to carry anything like that unless I was on the way to training. Have you not heard of our knife ban in the UK??? :cool:

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I know a few guys that carry them in the UK, that’s why I asked.
So, you don’t carry knives, but you train with them and not with practical everyday knives that you would use, but with the BFD’s?

Is this correct?

I assume just for tradtion, yes?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039508]I assume just for tradtion, yes?[/QUOTE]

Not entirely correct no.

I’m definitely holding onto something that could be considered a tradition, which is why I wouldn’t openly ‘teach’ the knife I know to anyone. Even starting this thread puts me into difficulty with my teacher and seniors to be honest.

I would never think that just training how I have is enough to understand a shorter stabbing/slashing blade and how it can be used. But I do understand common sense and how to transfer knowledge into various scenarios.

I’m just not into ‘testing’ things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits. But that’s only an opinion, not something to get too defensive about.

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I’m just not into ‘testing’ things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits. But that’s only an opinion, not something to get too defensive about.

Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039519]Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?[/QUOTE]

No dude. Again, read what I write :rolleyes:

I’m just not into ‘testing’ things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits.

I highlight the word definitely as I do feel I have enough experience to see quite easily if an interactive drill, whether in a sparring or more set controlled environment, will create bad habits. And GOOD ones.

I’m afraid the clips I watched would not help the knife man increase his/her skill with the BJD, and that may work the same vice versa too. Point is, weaponry is very specialized and each has their strengths and weaknesses. :wink: Even within Wing Chun there are differences to size, shape and ultimately purpose.

Give us an example of how YOU train with the Wing Chun knives…

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039508]I know a few guys that carry them in the UK, that’s why I asked.
So, you don’t carry knives, but you train with them and not with practical everyday knives that you would use, but with the BFD’s?

Is this correct?

I assume just for tradtion, yes?[/QUOTE]

over here carrying can get you jailed sucks but what can you do :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1039519]Testing creates bad habits?
As opposed to NOT testing that does what?[/QUOTE]

lol this answer should be interesting :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1039540]No dude. Again, read what I write :rolleyes:

I’m just not into ‘testing’ things out that definitely create and nurture bad habits.

I highlight the word definitely as I do feel I have enough experience to see quite easily if an interactive drill, whether in a sparring or more set controlled environment, will create bad habits. And GOOD ones.

I’m afraid the clips I watched would not help the knife man increase his/her skill with the BJD, and that may work the same vice versa too. Point is, weaponry is very specialized and each has their strengths and weaknesses. :wink: Even within Wing Chun there are differences to size, shape and ultimately purpose.

Give us an example of how YOU train with the Wing Chun knives…[/QUOTE]
I was introduced to the double knives when doing moy yat WC under sunny tang.
I prefer the knife training I picked up in the FMA, the drills were more practical and so was the training.

I don’t recall any bad habits I have picked up or seen anyone pick up from live drills and sparring with “knives”.
Sticks sometimes, but not knives.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1039500]If you have paid attention, and appreciate honesty, can you at least answer my questions? Call me curious George, but I’m also intrigued to know what you think I didn’t say outright?
[/QUOTE]

Basically, what you are not saying outright is (and of course, there is speculation into what is not being said):

  1. Your BJD set and Austin Goh’s are different
  2. Lee Shing did not teach Austin Goh the BJD, and he learned it from Yip Chun
  3. You don’t know why Lee Shing did not teach the knives to Austin Goh..nor is it your business
  4. You are also implying that some other source than Yip Man taught Yip Chun the knives (perhaps alluding to Lee Shing)
  5. As, let’s say, “dramatic”, as Austin Goh’s performances are, they are not indicative of the entire Lee Shing branch, and that we cannot judge you simply by Austin Goh’s performances.
  6. And we have not seen the Jun Mo or Yum Yeung WCK (hence, enough of Lee Shing branch) to make a fair assessment…

How’s that, for what you did not say outright?

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I would also say here that many people throughout WCK may not use stabbing as much - he preference for a particular type of shape of the knives will indicate who’s a slasher, vs. who is a stabber.

Stabbing often produces immediate death, more so than slashing.