I have learned about half of the Doa form, and am firmly entrenched in Chi Kwan and Kwan “sparring” training.
For those of you who have learned or are learning the WC Weapons: Do you simply learn the forms, or do you also train the combat applications and “spar” against your sifu/sihingdai with said weapons?
I realize that it is not realistic to carry an 8.5 foot pole or two swords around with you, nor is it likely that you will come up against such weapons on the street, so I was curious as to how your school or you individually approaches such training.
For me personally, I have found that sparring with the Kwan and Chi Kwan strengthens my empty-handed abilities, much like the Dummy does (although for different reasons). I also acknowledge that to be a proper sifu I should be able to pass on the system in its entirety, and that includes WC weapons training.
when you stop learning you are either already dead or ought to be.
even a sifu must continue to learn.
with weapons, with wing chun, nothing is enough - not even the contradictions (contact is ‘enough’)
semantics - ‘enough’.
ok enough semantics. once you have learned forms it is necessary to use things as they are meant to be used. but go slowly, too many people run before they walk, thrust their fingers before they have the centre, or speak before they know.
It is a given that weapons strengthens one’s empty hands. And by strengthen, what should actually be meant is refinement of the techniques. For many sifus the purpose of the weapons is that simple.
Yes, it’s true that one is not likely to come across a Luk Dim Pun Kwan in his “reality” situation (whatever that means), but the principle can certainly be applied to anything that requires two hands to pick it up.
As for the knifes, they are a reality - not in the form of the Bat Chum Do, but the principles of the many types of blades that exist, don’t vary that much from each other, only in how one chooses to slice a person up. And when one has the blades in ones hands, he had better have enough skill to have that “choice”. Not like one’s everyday Wing Chun, where most of the techniques that get in are by happenstance or circumstance.
We used to do a lot of Pole/Spear fighting inthe 1980’s and also knife sparring with padded kinds of knives. But I think the exercise was still academic maybe good for something but not to hone a fine weapons skill. we used to train Butterfly knife against the Japanese Katana. Lot’s of fun. We didn’t go too fast. Then I tried it against someone who was fairly good at using a Katana and that was a whole different thing. The changes were very quick and agile. That guy in the Extreme martial arts show doing the fast Katana form would give some idea of what your up against in real. I think hours of daily sparring with many opponents is required to really be able to use the Bat Jam Do against the various traditional Chinese and Japanese weapons. Most people don’t have the time or interest to take things to that depth. So many schools use the weapons as a supplement to hand training to increase strength or footmobility etc. Some of the knife and pole training develops some skills which can be transferred over to empty hand against kicking training. We also use the ideas of the knife and pole and just apply those to the training of regular combat knives but just sometimes for fun and if I lives in a dangerous city then it might be for practicality and daily if I didn’t happen to have a gun. We also used to practice fighting Bat Jam Do against people who knew how to do Escrima. We judged the matches as pretty even if both sides knew what they were doing. There is a fun movie called “Shaolin vs Ninja” where this Chinese guy marries a Japanese wife and they compare Japanese weapons use vs Chinese weapons use. She thinks the Japanese weapons and methods are superior and he of course has to prove her wrong.
For pole training we did the form, then a sticking pole exercise something like single sticking hands, then some separate attack and defence drills and then free style pole fighting. We used to put some round thing at the end of a spear so as not to kill our partners. Hits to the lead hand were a common occurence. Matches looked pretty much like fencing, maybe because my sparring partner was a Fencing teacher. He loved the spear fighting too.
For the Bat Jam do we did the form, then we trained the form against a wooden Japanese sword. Then we had various drills of knife vs knife where we used wooden foam covered sticks the same length as the Bat Jam do. After that we went to free style sparring using the knives. Whether that was good for anything who knows but it was fun in those days. We didn’t train enough to match the skills of people like Bobby Taboada / Remy Presas / Rene Latosa etc.
Since the 80’s we have never really gotten around to these things again except on occasion. Most people don’t have the time or interest for weapons work because they barely have enough time to master any of the empty hand work. So for us these things are just a diversion.
The down and up pole exercise where you grab the fat end with two hands and lower it and raise it is a good exercise which is said to also enhance one’s punch. I figure if you can do 500 with two hands then you might be able to do a single one with one arm. My wrist isn’t strong enough for that yet.
If you do try the Bat Jam do against a wooden Katana then later try it against a friendly person who has studied how to use this weapon properly. Fighting against Escrima/Arnis people is also good.
A good thing to do is also to fight spear (shorter and faster thanthe pole) against Bat Jam do. You really have to develop quick reflexes and footwork to enter in on the spear. I imagine this could enhance one’s empty hand skill a little.
Every lineage has their own Wing Chun knife form. The basic cuts seem to be the same but just the choreagraphy differs and also people argue about whether the knife is flipped or not. I was from the school of non-knife flippers although in my previous Hung style training the knife set did flip the knives for blocking and also hitting with the handle.
The Pan Nam knife set looks like a typical Southern style knife set.
Well not really but I only meant those kind of quick changes would give you a real knife workout. The Katana guy who just poses and waits for your first foolish move is equally hard to deal with. I doubt if anyone can handle a real live bladed weapon attack these days on any consistent basis against someone who is good. Maybe after trying, then simple hand attacks will seem very easy to defend against. I don’t really have anything intelligent to say on the subject because I didn’t train this enough. No amount of training is enough.
The 6.5 pole was one of the longest things it took to learn in my class. Our sifu would only teach one point every 4-6 months, and we would drill it over and over, solo and with a partner.
He said there was no point learning it if we couldn’t use it, and no using it if we didn’t train it.
Took a few years to get through all the points and extensions. Then we learned the actual set in an hour or so.
I was watching a video clip of my GM, William Cheun doing the butterfly sword form and was surprised that there was no flipping of the weapon so that the blade pointed down your fore-arm.
I thought that was one of the purposes of the guard near the handle of the blade?
What lineages (if any) use the buttefly knives that way (flipping them so that the blade isn’t point toward your opponent, but down your forearm instead)?
Also, does anyone have a video clip of the butterfly sword form being preformed? I’d like to compare it with the one in my lineage.
Could you elaborate a bit on the training to give an example of what kinds of things you would train on one of the points for example?
In the Dr. Khoe system each of the points referred to a technique like Bil/Biu, Dim, Tan, Fook, Bong, Jum, Lan etc. The form didn’t contain all the techniques the pole or in our case a spear could do. In our training method the order was:
Learn some empty hand punching exercise that they said helps one get ready for the pole.
Learn the pole form - it only had 27 movements.
Learn the sticking or clinging pole exercise which is equivalent to single sticking hands in the empty hand repertoire.
Train the points in isolation like one partner pokes and you do a Tan and counter poke. Or One partner pokes and you do the Fook and counter poke.
Then we went one to simple free style sparring.
Does any of the extensive training on a single point relate to any of this?
In Escrima in the Remy Presas system they do the three step Brush, Control and strike exercise for all the 12 angles of attack endlessly until that is good. This forms their foundation for everything I am told. So perhaps you guys did a similar pole thing.
To flip or not to flip is an old knife knife controversy that people used to argue about in the 1980’s. The Dr. Khoe/Wang Kiu lineage method doesn’t believe in flipping the knife either as is takes time, exposes on to risks and can’t be applied with a common kitchen cleaver anyway. The knife is referred to as 8 chop knife like a kitchen cleaver chopping. However lots of Southern styles do have knife flipping as did my hung style from the late 60’s, early 70’s. The flipped knife was used to cover the arm for blocking. However a shorter flipped knife on a long arm wouldn’t have the same effect of protecting the whole arm as in Hung style usage. In Hung style is was used for blocking and also to hit with the handles. The guard near the handle was a protection to prevent the hand getting cut from some weapon sliding down the blade of the Bat Jam Do. If you tried to use it to control a larger weapon like a pole you might just get the knife leveraged out of your hand on the other hand it might stop the pole for an instant giving you time to close and cut with the other knife. It all depends on the situation.
When WSL performed the knife form (my lineage) he didn’t turn the knives over because, as i understand it, he thought it served no practical purpose.
However when my instructor was in HK last november he saw an original student of Ip Man perform the Knife form with the knives turned over during one section. My instructor asked him why he did this. The reply he got was that it was the wing chun equivalent of gunslingers twirling their pistols in westerns i.e. it was purely for show.
I have seen William Cheungs knife form. All I will say is that it is quite different from the other ip man students i have seen- for instance he is the only one i have seen who jumps and spins in the air. That said, as far as i could see it did contain many of the same core actions as the others.
For example, one of the first points I learned was Cheung Gwun (Spearing Pole).
First we learned the basic move from both the high chamber (shoulder) and low chamber (waist) position, and repped it until it was okay.
Then we would begin to drill it using a small weight that dangled from a string. First we just had to hit the string, then as we got better, we had to hit it more specifically.
When we had a couple of points, we would do 2-person work (one speared, one cancelled, or dispersed, or whatever).
We did some clinging, not much, since the nature of the pole, IMHO for realistic use, limits its applicability. At the end we learned the set.
We didn’t do any empty hand prep, as we do a set similar to that in the very beginning (pre Siu Lien Tao) as horse training. I have done empty-hand derived from the pole, especially for locking and stuff, which is similar to our Fung Siu-Ching material anyway.
Ok, thanks Rene. That makes good sense. We also did the string hitting, well hitting the ball at the end of the strong anyway. Various Shaolin movies always show different ideas for pole training like poking through a small swing hoops, moving the pole around a little round plate, smashing nuts on the ground etc. On the surface it doesn’t seem like there is much to the pole but then that same conclusion can be derived from looking at Western Fencing or Western boxing and those arts are quite complex in the details. The attack and defense/defence movements are very simple.
I wonder how many WCners could block/parry somebody with a machete chopping and slashing wildly to kill them?
j/k
what I wonder more is if wing chun ppls are against training the use of the knife the way they are against training grappling from outside our style. Do we have all the necessary knife fighting techniques in our system already waiting to be applied? or do we need to look elsewhere?
food for thought in today’s world of edged weapons…
Hi Nick, the jump in the TWC Do form is as an option against a stylist who fights while spinning swords, kwan, or saam tiuh kwan from the floor as some styles do. The jump and turn has another use. Your explaination for not flipping the swords are the same as ours.
Emptycup,
The principles of the Do can be used with a single blade also. And it doesn’t. Just expect to get cut in any real knife fight. I know from experience.
