How important do you think weapons are to Wing Chun? Do you train them? Why or why not?
I think weapons in Wing Chun are pretty limited. The knives are ok and wing chun hand techniques can be applied with them but the pole is a whole lot worse. The 6 1/2 point pole is great for “wuen lik” or wrist strength development but as a fighting tool, cannot stand up to Northern system pole techniques. I think that’s because northern systems are genuine staff techniques while southern ones are really meant for the spear. The northern staff techniques are much faster and the whip-like poles are to me, much more useful than the one-ended thrusts and hard wood of the southern styles such as Wing Chun.
I personally think there is much more use in training filipino weapons such as escrima sticks and daggers because they have more “street-worth”. Nobody I know walks around with chinese butterfly knives or long poles 
But that’s only if you look at weapons training as just an end for fighting. Wing Chun weapons are valuable in enforcing the system’s concepts and such…so they do have worth in that respect.
Weapons are very important!
Hi!
As EmptyCup said, the weapons in Wing Chun are merely used to enforce the principles and there are a lot of better working weapon-systems (like the south-east styles).
Are weapons important for Wing Chun? Yes, of course. Wing Chun is a self-defense- / fighting-style. At least you have to know how weapons work and what one can do with them (to you).
Armin.
I think as a empty-hand fighting system, Wing Chun is definitely up there (hey, what did you expect? this is a wing chun forum after all), but it’s weapons are secondary to the hands. There are systems out there that are based wholly on weapons. Empty-hand techniques in these styles are secondary. So if you want good weapons techniques, a system that is created for weapons is obviously the way to go.
weapons are very important!
IMHO the weapons are very important in WC. Because of the distance involved and the weight of the weapons, all the intangible skills are magnified even more.
The knives are important in developing alive footwork and bridging skills. They mimic the hands very closely and require good body structure to receive the force from the pole and to disrupt the pole when bridging the gap. The knives help develop the killer instinct since they are lethal weapons. The footwork must be alive and quick. Timing and positioning must be perfect to deal with a longer and heavier weapon. The knife applications can be used empty handed as well.
One of the oral sayings in WC is “The pole is the teacher”. THe pole requires that you use good body structure because it is such a heavy weapon. If you cannot use the body, you cannot use the pole. Because the pole is such a long weapon, it also forces you to understand angles, timing, and distance. The steps used in the pole form also enhance your WC empty hand footwork. Using the pole and dealing with the pole force you to examine timing positioning, and body structure from a larger frame of reference.
In chinese martial arts the 4 core weapons are the spear, the staff, the broadsword (dao), and the double edged sword (jian). Elements of all 4 weapons can be found in the 2 weapons of WC. From an application standpoint, WC weapons cover blunt, edged, long, short, piercing, cutting, and thrusting. WHat else is there?
If I want to use the pole I can pick up a cue stick or a broom stick. I can carry a 3 inch utility knife with me and apply the WC knives. WC is just as applicable as the filipino arts, it’s just that most WC instructors either don’t know the weapons very well, don’t understand the concepts and cannot apply them, or they withold the information until the students 20th year to make more $$$.
regards,
Dzu
I think that most Wing Chun guys who go toe-to-toe against filipino martial artists who use purely Wing Chun weapons techniques will get creamed. I’m saying if a Wing Chun guy picked up two knives and tried to go against a filipino guy who was trained to fight with knives or if a WC guy picked up a broomstick when filipino stylists train with sticks.
Empty-hand techniques can be used in weapons too but what’s efficient and economical in Wing Chun with empty hands is not the most economical or efficient when dealing with sticks or knives. There’s no comparison. We’d get toasted. It’s the same with the average WC stylist fighting Muay Thai fighters. We get smoked all the time not because our system is inferior but because we don’t train like they do. We, as empty-hand stylists, cannot hope to be on the same level as people who train strictly weapons-based systems.
Principles, not techniques
You’re thinking on the “technique” level. Think in terms of principles.
A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. Whether it’s your hands, your legs, a knife, a stick, a chair, a chopstick. Principles are principles.
I’ve studied some eskrima and I don’t see any difference between the principles applied there vs WCK. You still need timing, positioning, and body structure with weapons regardless of the system. You still need to know the targets, and the strengths and weaknesses of your weapon. What is different is their numbering system and their training methods, but honestly WC weapons can be trained in the same manner.
As a WC practitioner I’m sure you don’t believe in flowery hands. So why practice flowery weapons? Practice enough and you learn to recognize a #1 angle regardless of what it is called. Fighting with weapons is much simpler than empty hand. A blade requires very little to wound compared to a fist and the pole transfers a lot of power into a small area. Usually the first person to make a mistake is dead. The real skill is gained from developing those intangibles.
Under a qualified Sifu, the weapons of WC are drilled just as rigorously as the filipino MA. The problem arises from the lack of qualified SIfu out there that can teach the weapon as a weapon and not some add on to the system to make $$.
I have numerous drills for the knives and pole for application purposes that were derived from the forms. Doing the forms is not enough. Pull the movements out of the forms and practice with a partner. Practice with and against different sized weapons.
Please explain to me how the filipino MA are better at weapons than WC because I just can’t see it.
regards,
Dzu
Excellent posts Dzu.
You have a good point: “Doing the forms is not enough. Pull the movements out of the forms and practice with a partner.”
Weapons should be seen in the same light as your empty hand training - chi sau is what makes your empty hand forms “alive”, and the same goes for chi kwan and chi do.
One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
– Sun-Tzu
weapons secondary
Yes, typically weapons in Wing Chun are secondary, because previous generations have made them as such. This is why Wing Chun is deemed an “open hand” style. IT IS NOT.
Wing Chun and the Weapons…
Weapons in WC are very important.
They really help your foot work.
Interesting fact
Hi!
I just remember a course held by Keith Kernspecht (WT). He was asked, if he was to fight against Bill Newman or Rene Latosa, who would win?
His answer was: If they would fight without weapons he would win, if they would fight with weapons they would win! Why? Very easy answer: He trains about 7 hours per day weaponless applications and only 1 hour with weapons. They train 7 hours per day with weapons and only 1 hour without.
Now take a look at Wing Chun: There are three weaponless/partnerless forms, one wooden-dummy form and two weapon-forms. That makes four to two - 33 % of Wing Chun (ok, I know - most movements are possibly done with weapons).
I think the biggest problem one faces when using knifes is the fact, that you have to skip most of the core elements of Wing Chun. Ever tried to feel and control a knife-attack? This will leave a nice cut - there will be no Bong and Tan against a blade. BTW: I never heard of anything like “Chi-Dao” 
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I think, that Wing Chun was built for fighting on the street against ambush-like attacks. But if you get attacked that way, you don’t have enough time to pull a knife or to get a long-staff (except if you are a wandering monk ).
I think we can talk a lot about this problem, every lineage and person has his own opinion. But I think that we all share the same opinion: If you want to get out of a knife- or stick-situation, you got to know the possibilities and restrictions of these weapons.
Greetings,
Armin.
ummm yeah, everything Armin says, I agree with
Training with heavy knives and a longassed pole might still allow you to adapt to using little knives and little sticks. But against somebody trained IN little knives AND little sticks??? I think not. Especially when wing chun IS a predominantly empty-hand system that ENCOMPASSES weapons. Our weapons are merely extensions of our hand techniques. THEIR weapons techniques ARE just based on the movements of the weapons alone. For those who question, go down to your local filipino martial arts place, borrow two rattans, and proceed to get a rude awakening I doubt the pole’s three techniques will help you at all…
P.S.
against experienced knife fighters, or even beginners, the frontal facing thing will get all your major organs stabbed and sliced
Not to mention holding your weapons in front of you is a good way of getting disarmed…real knife fighters shield their knives with their body and front hand while chambering the weapon at the hip or temple. Try “feeling” fast, vicious thrusts and slices from a hard-to-clearly-see area…and good stick guys can beat your head more than 12 times a second with wrist flicking. I doubt we can block those with our techniques…
>>>I doubt the pole’s three techniques will help you at all…<<<
Uh, that’s because the pole doesn’t lend itself to the body dynamics required for single-hand weapons like escrima sticks. The Bot Cham Do covers this area.
I use escrima sticks in place of knives when practicing the Bot Cham Do and Chi Do a lot of times. I also practice Bot Cham Do drills (cutting, deflecting, footwork, etc.) with more common cutting weapons as well.
Like Whipping Hand said, you’ve got to look past the surface “techniques” and into the principles.
>>>Not to mention holding your weapons in front of you is a good way of getting disarmed<<<
Still looking at the form for static technique here. The only reason a weapon is held forward in the Bot Cham Do form is because there are TWO of them, and are trained to be used in conjunction. When only one weapon is held it takes the “Wu Do” position and is shielded.
>>>the frontal facing thing will get all your major organs stabbed and sliced<<<
I’m not sure what you mean by “frontal facing thing”.
>>>I doubt we can block those with our techniques…<<<
That’s because you aren’t supposed to just stand there and block weapons attacks with your “techniques”. That’s why the bulk of the Bot Cham Do is taken up with footwork training and direct path cutting.
Armin,
>>>BTW: I never heard of anything like “Chi-Dao”<<<
Just because you’ve never heard of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
– Sun-Tzu
[This message was edited by Watchman on 07-24-01 at 10:51 PM.]
Hmm where to start…
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Just because we have 4 empty hand forms vs only 2 weapons forms means nothing. They are merely stages of progression. Who says that your training time has to reflect the same proportion as the number of forms? If you want to train weapons all the time then what is stopping you? I go through phases in my training where I focus on empty hands or weapons only. Soemtimes I split the time. This argument is not a limitation of the system. What you put in is what you get out.
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What core elements are missing using the weapons? Economy of motion? Body structure? Timing? Positioning? Maybe you are referring to all the ‘trapping techniques’. Isn’t the point of WC to use what is simple and efficient and not dwell on trapping unless there is a bridge created? My empty hands aren’t flowery and neither are my weapons. I don’t try to stick to the weapon I try to find the most direct path to hurt him.
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I have trained in eskrima and I see no difference between what they do and what WC does other than training methods. They focus on more drills and less abstract forms. Their empty hands also reflect their weapons. Nothing is different.
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The pole is not just a collection of techniques just as the empty hand sets aren’t. Against equal skill and a wide open space, the longer weapon will win.
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A knife is a knife is a knife. It was designed to cut and stab. Why would I waste time trying to block when I can cut his hand and end the fight immediately?
I’m sorry but some of these arguments make no sense to me. It’s like saying that WC is inferior to karate because they spend more time doing partner drills.
The solution to this is to have a good Sifu who understands weapons and can show you how to extract applications from the forms. The forms are a summary of the system and nothing more. The real gung fu is earned on your own and with a partner.
regards,
Dzu
I think it’s time to empty your cup again!
I have a cousin who was an Arnis practitioner who fought in many Escrima matches, and always did very well in competition. One day he met up with an old friend who invited him to some friendly stick sparring. His friend amazed him with some unusually efficient stick techniques. He found he was constantly being disarmed by his friend. His friend happened to be a Wing Chun practitioner who was applying WC knife techniques to the stick.
My cousin now practices Wing Chun. 
I must agree with Whipping Hand that it is the Wing Chun principles behind the knives that are important. The application of these principals apply to both hands and knives.
IMHO, not alot of people know enough about the WC weapons to be able to judge or compare them. I think the problem is - lack of education. There are’nt alot of instructors who can teach true applications to them, and not enough students who are willing to stick around long enough to learn them. Without application - it becomes a Wushu form.
This, of course - is just my opinion.
By the way…
Exellent post - dzu!
Armin
Keith would have lost in both cases. When you train weapons, you are training empty hands.
Training
It’s like DZU said, you’ve got to train them. If your weapons are lacking, don’t complain about the weapons, TRAIN them. This is the kind of mentality that has causes weapons to be “secondary” to the system.