What’s up, MP! Actually, the posts of yours that I have read are pretty good. I think you do a good job of focusing on training issues and avoiding the “style vs. style” stuff. I actually, agree with everything in your post wholeheartedly. My goal is to some day combine those training methods with my traditional training. After all, my heart is with the TMA’s and I have no desire to leave them. It is not that I plan to do any NHB competition although I think they are cool. I just want to ensure that my chosen discipline will work for me. Like I said before, its all in the training. Ok, I gotta get back to work. Peace. (o:
MP- Absolutely agreed. you definitely need the basics, and in a confrontation I will probably use those first to try to de-escalate the situation. But my training is spread out pretty evenly. If I were to focus more on the basics, the things I could use in eth ring, then my chances would improve.
Besides I am absolutely convinced that if you got someone into the ring you could probably argue them into submitting! 
If you want to compete and win in any competition you must train specifically for it. A Kung Fu guy can win in Olympic TKD if he changes his training to fight like and against Olympic TKD. If you want to win in NHB, train specifically for NHB.
BJJ, Sambo and MMA styles are training for that type of fighting.
Big Deal
If that is what you are looking for go to that kind of school.
If you are looking to be effective in the street then things change. Also not everyone can make BJJ work, just like not everyone can make Kung Fu, Karate or TKD work. It all depends on the person.
How many of us train in weapons that will never be used outside of the school or competition. We do it because we enjoy it.
Effectivness of a style is based on how you will use it. I know plenty of people who are effective fighters but will not win in NHB. What about boxers, Melton Bowen, a heavy weight champion showed up at a UFC and lost. Does that mean boxing sucks?
"Take any average guy in any style of kung Fu and make him train like a maniac against the most common strategies of MMA’s for a few months. "
Here is my thought, If you train and learn to counter what a MMA fighter is doing to you, then have you become a MMA fighter?
If you want to compete and win in any competition you must train specifically for it. A Kung Fu guy can win in Olympic TKD if he changes his training to fight like and against Olympic TKD. If you want to win in NHB, train specifically for NHB.
Too true!
There are many possibilities for kung fu’s poor performance in real fights. It’s not the rules becuase in NHB you are allowed to do anything you want except for Biting and eyegouging, although some tournments have more rules than others.
A kung fu person theoretically shouldn’t have to do special training for NHB since NHB allows all techniuques. Keith Hackney repeatedly punched JoeSon in the balls in UFC#4 to win the fight. If you like to grab the balls then enter an NHB tourament that allows it. SuperBrawl is a good one. They have the oringial UFC rules with legal ball grabs and people have had their head stomped on and they went unconscious.
So since there aren’t any restrictions on kung fu techniques, the rules cannot be the reason for kung fu’s poor performance. Granted you are not allowed to do biting or eyegouging but the same restriction is also placed on your opponent. NHB is the most rules free place to fight besides the street. NHB has fewer rules than san shou, muay thai, kickboxing, or anyother martial arts tournament. And there are even NHB tounaments in brazil that are truly No-Rules and eye poking and biting is legal.
The reason Kung fu has lost is becuase it doesnt’ work. Kung fu is just a bunch of forms and prearagned drills. This makes good looking forms and drills but it doesn’t create any fighitng ability. In fact kung fu actually HINDERS your fighting ability. You fight how you train and when you train to be in funny stances and throw ineffective techniques you will lose. It’s been proven time and time again that you are better off just fighitng like a drunk and throwing haymakers than using kung fu.
BJJ, Muay thai, wrestling. These 3 styles consitantly win. BJJ doens’t win becuase of size becuase Royce Gracie is outwieghed by an average of 50 pounds throughout his career. So BJJ success can’t be of atheltics becuase many succesful BJJ fighters like Royce, DelaRiva, ect. are very weak people. Yet they still beat bigger stronger people. Some styles are effective and some are not.
True there are many styles that work. BJJ is not the only style. Wrestling does wonders for grappling standing up. Muay thai is a very effective striking system. But it’s just as naive to say that all styles work as it is to say that all styles suck.
Do all styles suck? No.
Do all styles work? No.
Do some styles work? Yes.
Styles that work = BJJ, Wrestling, Muay thai, kickboxing, Sambo, boxing
When some styles consistanly win it can only be assumed that they work. When certain styles loose repeatedly even when they have the superior athelete then it can only be assumed that they truly don’t work.
Don’t let opinions get in the way. Look to the results of actual fights.
"Styles that work = BJJ, Wrestling, Muay thai, kickboxing, Sambo, boxing ’
Melton Bowen was the IBF heavy weight champion. He lost at UFC in a little over a minute. Does that mean boxing is inefective? Or does it mean it is inefective because he lost so easily.
If you can say boxing is effective, whats the differentce between a boxer and a WC guy that hits incredibly hard?
If you train and learn to counter what a MMA fighter is doing to you, then have you become a MMA fighter?
No.
On one level or another, it’s all Tai Chi. It has nothing to do with perception. It’s the Way…The Tao.
Originally posted by Dark Knight
[B]"Take any average guy in any style of kung Fu and make him train like a maniac against the most common strategies of MMA’s for a few months. "
Here is my thought, If you train and learn to counter what a MMA fighter is doing to you, then have you become a MMA fighter? [/B]
Only if the counter you develop contradicts the principles of your style. The movements in forms are not the only moves in a style they simply illustrate the execution of moves according to a style.
Dark Night. BJJ has lost. Muay thai has lost. Wrestlers have been KO’d. Sambo player got his neck snapped by Wrestler Mark Kerr in the Pride Grand Prix. Boxer Melton Bowen got hip tossed then pummled on the ground. Professional Muay thai fighter Anthony Macias got supplexed by Wrestler Dan severn.
But these style consistantly win. The don’t consistantly lose. And of course when you put 2 different effective styles agaisnt each other then one has to win.
Boxing also has had some very impressive victories in NHB. Former olympic Boxer Vitor Belfort has pummled people left and right and beat Tank abbot in under a minute. Vitor is also a BJJ black belt but he uses boxing very good and has won many fights very quickly by KO.
Kung fu people have learned to stay home and that real fighting is not their forte. That’s ok as long as the practioners of kung fu realize that their style is not going to help them in a real fight. Many people do things for artistic and cultural reasons. Some people are into ballet but as long as they realize it won’t help them fight that’s OK if they do ballet, kung fu, tai chi, ect.
“We’ve never lost to any traditional school.”
Have you ever competed in a tourney or circuit which [whatever you count as] traditional artists routinely join?
The reason Kung fu has lost is becuase it doesnt’ work. Kung fu is just a bunch of forms and prearagned drills
Ralek, need I remind you and the rest of the world ,for the millionth time, that I have sparred and done well againts styles that you claimed to be superior to kung fu, such as boxing or highschool wrestling.
This weekend I will also spar a judoka who happens to be a good friend of mine’s.You need to stop making stupid statements that you know nothing about.
I also had a classmate of mine’s who took judo and jiujitsu and he left because he didn’t like it. Now he’s taking my style.
The main reason why a lot of kung fu practitioners might not do well is because they do not know how to use their kung fu plus they don’t train as intensively or sparr as much as they should. However there are some who have fought and done well. I will keep my friend’s name out of this but he’s a hardcore traditionalist who’s had to use his kung fu in real life.
It saddens me that you have so little knowledge and frankly I feel embarrassed for you:( :o
Re: Style Vs Style debate
Originally posted by KnightSabre
[B]
I hate the Style Vs Style Debate,but here goes
[/B]
Unlike most people who hate the style vs. style debate you seem to like starting arguements on the subject t
On the mantis forum you posted that the difference between BJJ and JJ is that a BJJ bluebelt can defeat a JJ blackbelt.EIther you love the style vs style debate or you think that you can openly call one stlye superior to another without a response .
P .S. i wrote the post that this is a reply to so youhave me to thank for this stupid thread . Also my keyboard is broken which is why mypost looksfunn y!
Let’s think on this a minute, if in MMA you use the combination of Muay thai, wrestleing and BJJ. You have what aspects covered? Punches, kicks, takedowns and joint locks. CMA guys know this as Ti, Da, Shuai, Na. It’s the same thing. Really it’s just people who are imature to the martial arts that think you really need a seperate style for each aspect. It’s actually more important that you can blend then together and have each aspect support the other, that’s how you become a complete fighter, MMA or not.
Originally posted by Ralek
. Some people are into ballet but as long as they realize it won’t help them fight that’s OK if they do ballet, kung fu, tai chi, ect.
WOW ! YOUR AN IDIOT! http://www.mixedmartialarts.ca/HTML/Rumble5/09JeremiahJason.htm
thats a link to a fight where taichi actually BEAT KICKBOXING and dont pretend i searched the internet for that either.The guy who won that fight posts here under the name beautifulvalley.
This is just one example. Kungfu isnt all prearranged drills and forms. I think you are a little confused. there is something called modern wushu which has forms which were designed to look good. You may have seen modern wushu forms competitions and think this is what all kung fu is . Most kungfu was designed for killing .
In another post you stated that kungfu people wouldnt need to train for nhb because all the moves are legal. thats not how they would train for nhb you idiot. they would train for NHB by sparring against BJJ /Muay thai
Shaolin,
No you don’t need a seperate system for every combative range but some systems do focus very well on certain elements, that is there bread and butter so to speak, though your statement that everything should blend together and support each other is right on the money.
IMHO styles don’t really mean much from a overhead viewpoint, thats why I am not so hung up on the term martial art, in fact I believe a lot of the abstract philosophy and style pride gets in the way of personal combative development, of course that is based only if you are looking for self defense as a goal of one’s martial arts training.
Set styles based on culture and historic mythos do have a warm place though in the heart of the player, personal selection based on “how it feels to them”, straight out love of the systems training, and academic research are a few examples.
All I know is my style will defeat any of your MOTHERS in the ring, and if you dont believe me you name the time and place and I will DESTROY your MOM.
Most martial arts are much more complete than what they are made out to be. The only thing that a lot really lack is ground work. This can be fixed by examining striking and throws sometimes. Rolling around on the ground can be a dangerous proposition… but should not be avoided at all costs, do it sometimes…see what you can learn, how to avoid being mounted and pummled. I think a lot of you will find that there are techniques that when slightly modified will work on the ground as well.
Le n00bi, first of all, never feed a troll. His/her e-silence was very conspicuous while J was on here looking for an opponent. That silence spoke volumes.
Secondly, don’t support your arguments on J’s legs. His self-promotion is going nicely without the help of anyone. 
The Northern Lights Tai Chi players are very confident and secure in our practice. Nothing to prove. Nothing to gain. Nothing to lose.
Style or Person?
Style NO
Person NO
Person + Style YES
Its 50/50 mkay
Quite simple.