I replied to someone in the Praying Mantis forum but I thought it would be interesting for everyone to see.
I hate the Style Vs Style Debate,but here goes
Are you saying that if one style predominantly beats another style ity’s not the style but the practitioners?
Is it a fluke then that the one style has all the gifted athletes joining it’s ranks while the average athletes take up the other?
Whats harder to believe ,that one style is more effective than another or that one style has all the good fighters flocking to learn it and the other style has poor fighters joining?
The school where I train at Street Tough Gym South Africa Http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa has taken part in quite a few NHB tournaments, the schools record is something like 30 wins 5 losses.Our losses come from another BJJ school and we’ve beaten them 4 or 5 times too.
We’ve never lost to any traditional school.
Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?
I find that hard too believe.
If you’re talking NHB then of course you’ll beat traditional styles. The BJJ school probably isn’t ‘traditional’, I’m sure they cross train as much as you do for NHB.
Hope you realise the can of worms you’re opening as well, I’m just waiting for the ‘but there ARE rules in NHB and THAT’S why traditional styles don’t win’ reply!!
You also have to realise that just as with anything success breeds success. If a good fighter comes from a school then other good fighters are attracted to it and so on. And some good results in competition also gives the students at the school added incentive and inspiration to train harder, resulting in more good results etc. etc.
However don’t the traditional schools learn how to kick,punch,knee, elbow, block punches and kicks etc.
They have all the weapons neccessary to compete in the NHB matches.
The rules were few,and very similar to the first UFC’s.
So what was it that they were not prepared for?
Ground fighting?
No,most traditional schools swear that their training is complete and anyway they can’t get taken down.
Is it the rules?
In that case the only weapons they have that actually work is biting and eye gouging.
Is it cause they weren’t fighting multiple apponents?
I don’t see how they could beat two or three guys when they get beaten by one.
Whatever style you train in, you have to train to fight in the ring/cage in order to have it work in a full contact fight. That means training within the parameters of the rules, which is NOT the same as training for self-defence purposes–although there is some obvious cross over. Boxing is hardly a self-defence art, but it’s got obvious applications in that manner.
The excuse that there are rules isn’t good enough for me. If you simply don’t want to fight in the ring, that’s fine–but if you make the argument that the rules make all the difference because you “can’t do ‘x’” then you are short on fighting ability and long on “tricks,” that may not save you when the crap hits the fan.
Knight–to back you up–the ground is a hideous weakness in most styles. I don’t understand the abhorence some people seem to have for training for that. No need to be an expert, but a good idea of how to get up and get away from somebody who may actually know what they are doing is a useful thing to have in the toolbox.
quote from KnightSabre: “Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?”
That happens a lot in other sports, so why not MA? When I was in High School, this went on in the Fall between baseball and track and field. If the Track team was doing good, the majority of talented athletes joined the track team. If the baseball team was doing good, then the talented athletes would go to the baseball team.
Also… 1950’s = Judo, 1960’s = Karate, 1970’s = Kung Fu, 1980’s = Ninjitsu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Filipino styles, 1990’s = Kickboxing and BJJ, 2000’s = NHB.
BJJ and NHB athletes are just following the herd.
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”-- Han Solo to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars: A New Hope.
I know this is oppenning a can of worms but the forum was getting boring so I thought I would spice it up.
Well that and the fact that I was replying to the Praying Mantis Vs BJJ thread created by someone else.
Hey Did kung fu for 5 years and Wing Chun for 2
Those traditional styles know how to make you fit,atleast 30 minutes of the class was pusshups,situps,sky jumps,bunny hops,snake jumps,tiger rolls,running jumping etc.
Guys I’m only gonna be back on Monday,so I will reply to your posts when I can.
I always take it with a grain of salt when people say any ONE thing is definitely the ONLY way to go, whether it’s in martial arts or anything else.
The NHB fights I’ve seen have been VERY educational. They made me address some serious weaknesses in my own training. I realized that my traditional background hadn’t given me all the tools I neede and that I would have to study other stuff to make up the shortfall.
But that’s me. There’s no reason to believe that there aren’t plenty of people out there across disciplines that have more natural ability, better training habits, and whatnot, who don’t need to pick up the slack.
I had an acting coach once who overheard me and a buddy debating who was the best Hamlet, Mel Gibson or Lawrence Olivier. My coach pointed out that the best Hamlet ever performed was probably by some guy in an amateur production in some rinky town somewhere that no one ever heard of and never will.
I think that’s true in martial arts. I don’t care how good you are at BJJ. Right now, somewhere in this country, is a guy taking Tae Kwon Do that can whip your a$$. And someone who studies Shotokan. And someone who studies Ninjutsu. I’m not saying any one style is better than the other…that’s my point. Why haven’t they stepped up to the UFC? I don’t know. Maybe they have jobs or college loans or something. I don’t want to take away from the NHB fighters…they’re in great shape, and oftentimes, brilliant martial artists to boot. But they’re not the end-all, be-all, and history and common sense should tell you that.
Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make proud, and if you spend too much time crowing about the superiority of BJJ and mocking McDojos, then you’re just DARING the universe to wipe you up with a guy who takes plain ol’ karate.
Hey, Rev. Tim, good post! I have nothing personal against MMA’s. My belief is that if its what you want to do, go for it. But why put down other styles in the process? I mean, if you are secure about the effectiveness of your chosen discipline, why is that necessary? I don’t believe that NHB competitors and MMA’s are bad guys. I do believe, however, that those who bash traditional arts because they fair poorly in NHB competitions are the reason that the TMA’s have such a negative opinion of this brand of martial artists. I have the utmost respect, personally, for the work ethic of NHB competitors. I think that we in the TMA’s could stand to emulate a lot of their training methods. Note, I said “training”. After all, the person with the best training methods is the one who will stand victorious. I don’t make excuses for traditional martial artists who fair poorly in NHB. If it is because the rules work against them, how about gearing your training towards those rules? After all, that is what the MMA’s are doing. It makes sense that they have the most success. By the same token, it is unfair to put down the TMA’s because the majority of them are not interested in NHB competition. Bottom line, I respect anyone who busts their tail at their chosen discipline. However, I find it hard to respect those who feel the need to put down those who choose a different path. Ok, I’m done ranting. Peace.
‘The ring is not the street.’ True. Neither is the kwoon.
‘Ring training will not prepare you for a real fight because
you’ll get bad habits.’ I fail to see how learning to put
somebody’s lights out is a bad habit. I might not think to knee
them in the groin, but a knee to the head works wonders
as well.
Anybody that thinks they can be prepared for physical
altercations without full contact, limited rules sparring of some
kind.
Anybody who thinks that rudimentary groundfighting isn’t a
worthwhile pursuit. Do I want to be there? Nope, but there
are now very few people who can KEEP me there under their
terms if I don’t want to be.
Anybody who thinks that ‘training for the average joe,’ is
acceptable. Train like the guy who wants to fight you knows
what he’s doing. That block against the roundhouse bar brawl
punch? Learn to deal with hook, and that’s nothing.
Essentially, it’s just a training issue, as you surmised. I have no problem with TMA. Send me to a school that beats the crap out of each other regularly, and I’m as happy as can be. Good is good, and bad is bad, in MMA and TMA. Good training looks like good training no matter where you are.
I think it has everything to do with the way you train. For instance, Knightsabre, you say that your school regularly enters NHB type tourneys, so my guess is your training is pretty hard core right?
Now you take a traditional guy that goes to a ‘traditional’ school. most traditional schools arent. A good portion of those suck anyway.
As for rules MP, I wouldnt say they are a crutch by any means, but most traditional guys are training for two reasons, to look good or to hurt people. For instance I train to defend myself as quickly and efficiently as possible, for me that means I dont mind using eye gouges or breaks to stop someone from doing somehting I dont want them to do. The way I train is not appropriate for the ring, but I am interested in fighting in the ring and so have begun to shift my focus to things that are more appropriate for tourneys.
Simply said!..Take any average guy in any style of kung Fu and make him train like a maniac against the most common strategies of MMA’s for a few months. Make him develop his strikes into potent weapons and let him go for it! Ther could be some surprising results!
After thinking about it a little more I have come to the conclusion that I would lay money that MMA guys would win as many fights as TMA guys if they trained similarly. Say if we had a KFO tourney and we all trained to fight in one I think we would come to find the numbers are petty well rounded and that if you were to look at those who won, similar attributes would be depth of knowledge, and will to win, and not necessarily style.
I won’t mind using eye-gouges and breaks either, but to me, those are add-ons, not staples. Things you learn in addition to getting the good basics of kicking, punching, throwing, etc down. You won’t go wrong with those basics, in or out of the ring.
I know good training has that. What I’m saying is that ‘bad training,’ places too much emphasis on these “disabling moves,” instead of on fighting.
