Quite recently I attended my Chow Gar praying mantis class, and a few of the senior students ware doing what looked like chi sao (sticking hands), except using SPM techniques. I was wondering if this was an integrated part of the system or weather it is used as an additional sensitivity training exercise.
-Cheers in advance.
Anand & Chi Sao
>Quite recently I attended my Chow Gar praying mantis class, and a few of the senior students ware doing what looked like chi sao (sticking hands), except using SPM techniques. I was wondering if this was an integrated part of the system or weather it is used as an additional sensitivity training exercise.
Reasonable question. Is there a reasonable answer as to why you’ve brought this matter to a public forum as opposed to asking your Senior’s? John
Additional question
How much value will Taiji’s push hands give to SPM’s feeding hands?
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
Some. But there are significant differences.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Mr. Slap
This was gonna be a show me question for the end of the month. It’s been on my mind for about 6 months now. I want you to feel Dr. Tao’s method first as it is signifigantly different from most people’s expression of Tui Shou. 
Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.
Anand and Chi Sau
Hello Hungmei,
Is there a reason not to bring this question to a public forum? While I agree that the question should be asked at ones kwoon and among ones peers I also see no reason not to seek outside opinions as well. I feel that this could aide one in further understanding things and getting a broader perspective. I am not sure if I am getting the right impression but it seems like you like to promote more of a closed door approach which has the appearence of not sharing openly outside of your lineage. If I misunderstand then I gladly appoligize but this is the appearence I got.
Anand,
I have no real experieince with SPM so I regret I can offer you no real input as to your original question. You may wish to visit the Wing Chun board and try to get in contact with some of Steve Cottrels students. If I am not mistaken he teaches Wing Chun and Praying Mantis although I do not know of which family.
Peace,
Dave
Hello Annand,
All the various SPM branches and Pai have versions of bridge sensitivity training, some are soft and some hard - the harder two man ‘Doi-Chongs’ have little in common with Wing-Chun. The softer ‘Mor-Sau’ or ‘Mor-Kiu’ (feeling the bridge) methods are more similar but as with Wing-Chun they refelct the systems theories and principles and these can vary between SPM systems as much as they do between SPM and Wing-Chun.
Some of my students have compared their Mor-Kiu with wing-Chun’s chi-sau (with Samuel Kwok Si-Fu back in 1988). The 'results showed that if WC geometry was adhered to then WC has the advantage.
If however, it becomes a free play situation then the Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum students carried it as their training involves much less formal and repetitive/cyclical structure. Indeed in a comparrison of single arm engaements the WC came of much worse. That was at the time - which was a long time ago. I also teach WC - which I think the moderator is aware of. My position on the two methods is that where it is not abstracted into something quite separate or where it is not overly stated, WC’s sticking hands are a very good training exercise. In Lee-Yin-Sing’s Jook-Lum Mantis, it is only a sensitivity exercise and students are remindd again and again that real fighting does not follow
such fixed cyclical patterns. Once sensitivity on the bridge is developed, then whole-body sensing is introduced at which point abstracted and isolated bridge training becomes somewhat obsolete.
My experience of Tai-Chi likewise of WC and Jook-Lum is that its pushing hands follows that systems principles. In Lee-Yin-Sing’s Jook-Lum there is some similarities with Tai-Chi (more in fact than with WC) as the whole body ging and sensitivity is emphasised. I can’t speak for the other Jook-Lum branches, but I’m sure that their representatives could offer much for our understanding.
Aussie John, who posts here is a practitioner of Chow-Gar as well as Jook-Lum and may be able to add something on the different empahsis between the two systems with respect to sensitivity training and more broadly ‘sticking’ hands as Chow-Gar is noted for its harder and powerful Doi-Chong exercises.
I hope that the above is of some help.
Kindest Regards,
Steve Richards.
Those who know Jack (John) know that his style is Socratic in that he often posts prompts as an oportunity for people to develop their line or point further. A response to the post by Jack, as questioned by the forum moderator above, might allow the original poster to highlight his background and training and maybe the background thinking behind his question. Elucidation from prompts is a ‘reasonable’ aspect to debate, just as Jack suggests, and has been recognised as such within the classical western tradition since at least the 5th century BC in Athens.
Kindest Regards,
Steve Richards.
Could be you have a point
Hello Steve,
While I concede your point I also would like to raise the possibility that the “prompt” by Jack(?) could also have a negative affect. It could be construed as intimidating by the questioner and lead them to abandon their quest for knowledge in the first place. They may feel that they overstepped some boundary by posing the question in the first place.
If you read my post you will see I gave my impression and also stated that if I was incorrect offered an apology. However, I am not basing my opinion on this one post but on several that have appeared throughout the different boards. Some of those posts would be dificult to interpret, IMHO, as anything other than a negative attack. However it is not my wish to enter into any type of negative posting so I will defer to your interpretation of his motives.
Peace,
Dave
Sihing73
>Is there a reason not to bring this question to a public forum?
Depends, in one instance it may promote clarity, in another, confusion.
>While I agree that the question should be asked at ones kwoon and among ones peers I also see no reason not to seek outside opinions as well.
Depends as well. “Outside” opinions are just that “outside the scope of the teacher’s transmission of his/her art.” The poster identified himself as a newbie and as such it seems reasonable to me that he first seek clarification from the fountain head. In order to properly value a given opinion a person must have a reasonable knowledge base from which to form judgements. How do you propose he arrive at a reasonable decision as to the relative merit of a Forum opinion when he himself has nothing (SPM) with which to compare & contrast?
>I feel that this could aide one in further understanding things and getting a broader perspective.
Perhaps, but in order to get to the place you’re referring to a person must “bring something to the table” and right now the guy’s plate is empty.
>I am not sure if I am getting the right impression but it seems like you like to promote more of a closed door approach which has the appearance of not sharing openly outside of your lineage.
Understood, and incorrect. If that were the case I wouldn’t even involve myself in this type of activity. I don’t abide by the “Hooray for me, and to hell with you” mindset. IMO, it only promotes stasis, and stasis is tantamount to death.
>If I misunderstand then I gladly appoligize but this is the appearence I got.
I never ask for or require a personal apology. The written word is inherently sloppy, misunderstandings arise, and most of us are slogging through this thing to the best of our abilities. John
Yes, the Socratic style is harsh in appearnce sometimes. The proof will be if the questioner joins in with the on-going reflection (which includes your posts) and moves himself and others on. If we don’t ‘examine ourselves’ then posts become monologic statements. In the East of course harsh questions are designed to put people off, but knowing Jack as I do his style is western and dialectical.
Best Regards,
Steve Richards.
lee
i was wondering if you could explain the workings or mor kuil and mor sau, if you dont mind? is it the same a s bak mei’s mor kuil and lung yings mor kuil or different.
kuil and sau are 2 different parts so would you do your exercise different when doing mor kuil compared to mor sau?
thanks in advance 
regards
Garry
come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com
Socratic “Harshness”
>Yes, the Socratic style is harsh in appearance sometimes.
Thanks for filling in the blanks for me Steve. This verbal format really doesn’t suit me worth a crap.
The other side of the coin is that it never ceases to amaze me how ungodly mouthy and noble some people are outside of arm’s distance.
People seem to forget, and most do it intentionally because they are scared shitless, is that this thing is MARTIAL Art.
Frickin unreal, and if someone would have told me 30 years that things would come to this I would have laughed in their face, . . . and then kicked their ass John
Hungmei
Hello,
Quote:
[The other side of the coin is that it never ceases to amaze me how ungodly mouthy and noble some people are outside of arm’s distance.]
Please feel free to e-mail me it is listed in my profile while I failed to see one for you. I will be visiting Baltimore in the near future to visit the aquarium, perhaps we could meet. As you say the written word is not always reliable so it is possible to be misconstrued. A meeting in person often serves to clear up many things. You sound just like one of the guys I trained Wing Chun with
Peace,
Dave
There he goes again!
Hunggie is doing what he does best, making friends! 
After all, HE knows whats best, he will tell you so, and then threaten to kick your ass since “this verbal format” does not suit him.
Hey Hunggie, since you get your knickers in a twist over just about everything , why don’t you start a “Closed Discussion Board” so you can control everything that is posted? You know, just like (TABOO) at www.(TABOO).com?
I wonder if Socrates ever kicked somebodys ass for asking a question in a PUBLIC forum?‡
Mor Kiu
Hello Garry,
You’d really have to ask people from other jook-Lum branches, but from what I have seen what passes for Mor-Sau in some is effectively what passes for Mor-Kiu in others. In Lee-Yin-Sing’s Mantis, the bridge is a whole body contact, as energies are felt and discharged through the whole structure rather than say as can happen in Wing-Chun (sometimes) be mainly if not exclusively limited to forearm (wristto below the elbow) sensitivity. Of course, pressure changes in Wing-Chun are felt through the body, but the emphasis is maiinly on the lower arm. The use of chi-gerk in Wing-Chun goes a way towards extending this, but in my personal experienec of the two systems Mantis is less abstracted and more whole body orientated. You’d need to experienec it of course so a written exposition is likely to be incomplete. In Lee-Yin-Sing, Mor-Kiu is distinct from the Chy Sau Doi-Chong’s typical say of Chow-Gar Tong-Long.
Hope this helps,
Best Regards,
Steve.
Socrates
Socrates was a scultor, dialectical philosopher and a soldier. He kicked plenty of ‘ass’ in his day, and did so in a REAL public forum, rather than a ‘virtual’ one like this.
Dialectiaclly, you’d have failed at the first fence as your lack of openness eliminates any possibility of you learning anything beyond your bitterness.
Anand
Hello Anand,
Do you have any comments having read the points raised thus far? it would be interesting and informative to hear them.
Best Regards,
Steve Richards.
LOL
I’ll get ahold of this one tomorrow.
Balt. Vistit, Sihing73
>Please feel free to e-mail me it is listed in my profile while I failed to see one for you.
That’s interesting. I just checked my profile and it’s listed. Additionally, I’ve contacted you about another matter off list, as you failed to respond perhaps you didn’t see that either.
>I will be visiting Baltimore in the near future to visit the aquarium, perhaps we could meet.
Just let me know the date(s) you will be in town and I’ll clear my calendar so we can meet. There’s a park right down the street from the Aquarium so we can touch hands as well.
>As you say the written word is not always reliable so it is possible to be misconstrued.
Exactly, and the spoken word if often times equally reliable. That’s why when “speaking” of TCMA we “talk” through our hands.
>A meeting in person often serves to clear up many things.
Agreed.
>You sound just like one of the guys I trained Wing Chun with
Whatever that means. No need to respond in the forum, save it for our meeting. John