Northern Mantis Chi sao?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

Hello,

I am aware of the fact that Northern Mantis style(s) is a very rich system that covers all ranges and is blessed with a rich variety of techniques. This makes me assume that you guys also have exercises that develop “sensitivity”, “listening” and bridging aspects.

As the title of this thread implies I am curious to see if you guys practise a form of chi sao or equivalent to gain the attributes mentioned in the above paragraph. If so please give a more or less simple explanation on how you train these.

Thanks.:slight_smile:

2

I did crossing or “sticky” hands when I trained mantis.I did’nt touch hands with the teacher.For some reason(SCARED)he NEVER did sticky hands or spar with me or the other senior students.But thats another story.Sticky hands does train listening skills but when sparring it does nothing for you.It can be bad in some ways.For example,during the short-lived sparring class,the wing chun and other mantis students would look for a bridge so they could try their sticking skills.While they were looking for a bridge I would just punch them in the face.I actually got in “trouble” for this and was told to let them use their techniques so they could “win”.

3

[QUOTE=notanexit;915242]the wing chun and other mantis students would look for a bridge so they could try their sticking skills.While they were looking for a bridge I would just punch them in the face.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like they missed making the bridge then..lol.

I do have to disagree with you though. While chi sao is not meant to be sparring, it does teach sensitivity & reaction skills that one can use when sparring.

I agree that sparring (as in fighting) usually will not have any lengthly exchanges if good strikes are being made, but some of the exchanges leaned through doing chi sao can teach you to shorten those exchanges if a bridge is in fact made.

Also, not to sound rude, but if you really think your teacher was scared,maybe you should just go test that theory rather than keep bringing it up. Life is too short to hold a grudge like you are carrying around. Resolve it.

Best wishes to all,
BTL

4

As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY

And in terms of Jing

Trapping- Kun
Sticking- Nien
Neutralizing-Hua
Intercepting-Jie
Listening-Ting

These are all important tovewr come your opponent using his YI or intent before reflex.

notanexit,
as I read ALL of your posts in the last 6 months or so you seem to (as Bei) said sound bitter and need to let it go.
Its really getting bothersome that every post you reply to you need to throw in a jab at your ex teacher.

My God man find another one and move on with your life.

And to say that you teacher is scared to spar you is just ridiculous.

As well as when trying to do say push hands excerisize you breaking the connection and mving faster then punching them in the face perhaps it was the teacher who through YOU out! I would not tolerate that type of behavior in my class.

Dont know what your motivation is to do that but if you ever wish to cross hands with a mantis practicioner to see how effective mantis is by all means make you way up to NY and I will match you up with some of my begginer students…

5

Thank you EarthDragon.

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;915317]As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY[/quote]

Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?

Familiar concepts from the Wing Chun point of view.:slight_smile:

You mean “jamming” or neutralizing him as soon as you “feel” his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

6


Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?

technically they are trained with an (opponent) or in a school (partner)

You mean “jamming” or neutralizing him as soon as you “feel” his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

correct, you should never try to stop force… this is wrong, you must always allow his motion to come and just redirect it then use it against him… this is a higher level..
the level i am working on now is to read the YI form the opponents thought before you “feel” …this is again reacting to the reaction which is always slower… if you can read the intent beofre he moves you are always faster… to not be there when the punch is thrown is the ultimate defense but this takes decades…

7

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;915568]
Are the above trained in fixed, free flowing two man exercises or both types of exercises?

technically they are trained with an (opponent) or in a school (partner)

You mean “jamming” or neutralizing him as soon as you “feel” his intent (through your bridge) as opposed to catching and stopping him halfway through his offence?

correct, you should never try to stop force… this is wrong, you must always allow his motion to come and just redirect it then use it against him… this is a higher level..
the level i am working on now is to read the YI form the opponents thought before you “feel” …this is again reacting to the reaction which is always slower… if you can read the intent beofre he moves you are always faster… to not be there when the punch is thrown is the ultimate defense but this takes decades…[/QUOTE]

I understand now. Thank you.

I suspect that in another scenario you can even stop the motion from a physically more powerful person if you “catch” his intent before he moves and jam him with a push or even re-direction.

8

absolutely, the key is to not have to react to him but rather act prior, this will enable you to be one step ahead.

9

Is this what you’re looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGJMm-AVmA&feature=channel_page

Good example me thinks

Craig

10

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;915568][B] you should never try to stop force…[/QUOTE]

Never say never…

11

Yes Tainan you are correct, there are times when this is neccesary… I should have known never to say never from James Bond…

12

[QUOTE=BeiTangLang;915258]Sounds like they missed making the bridge then..lol.

I do have to disagree with you though. While chi sao is not meant to be sparring, it does teach sensitivity & reaction skills that one can use when sparring.[/QUOTE]

That’s were I found the flaws in the training.The students are trained to do techniques against a partner who GAVE them EXACT bridge so they could use sticky hands or chi sao.But when sparring those bridges weren’t there.The previous training only gave them false confidence because they were used to working with a complaint partner.That’s why I and others got in trouble.I had to LET them WIN in order to restore that false confidence.

[QUOTE=BeiTangLang;915258]I agree that sparring (as in fighting) usually will not have any lengthly exchanges if good strikes are being made, but some of the exchanges leaned through doing chi sao can teach you to shorten those exchanges if a bridge is in fact made.
Yes,with proper training
Also, not to sound rude, but if you really think your teacher was scared,maybe you should just go test that theory rather than keep bringing it up. Life is too short to hold a grudge like you are carrying around. Resolve it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BeiTangLang;915258]Best wishes to all,
BTL[/QUOTE]

I had a thread here a couple of weeks ago in which I stated that I would like to settle this face to face.But it was deleted(Disciple:Wah!! Gene he’s talking about me make it stop Wah!!:()I even gave an example of his cowardice in which he backstabbed me and relayed it to some senior students (knowing that they would tell me)Because he did’nt have the guts to tell me himself.Just letting the truth be known.He is whats wrong with cma.

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;915317]As chi sao tui sao implies these are sticky hands and pushing hands most known in wingchun and taji. But mantis uses similar variations of these in our 12 priciples and in Jing applications.

The few that come to mind are

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE

NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS

BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY

And in terms of Jing

Trapping- Kun
Sticking- Nien
Neutralizing-Hua
Intercepting-Jie
Listening-Ting

These are all important tovewr come your opponent using his YI or intent before reflex.

[/QUOTE]
I studied that same theory.You know what I found out?It’s different trying to apply them against a resisting opponent.Very different.
notanexit,
as I read ALL of your posts in the last 6 months or so you seem to (as Bei) said sound bitter and need to let it go.
Its really getting bothersome that every post you reply to you need to throw in a jab at your ex teacher. [QUOTE]

He has a thread about me in his forum,is that bothersome to you as well?There is a thing called the first amendment(for right now).You dont have to read ANY of my posts or respond to them.
My God man find another one and move on with your life.

And to say that you teacher is scared to spar you is just ridiculous.

[/QUOTE]
Why is that ridiculous?He had plenty of oppurtunity to cross hands or spar me and other senior students,NEVER happened.I read and see other teachers sparring their students.
As well as when trying to do say push hands excerisize you breaking the connection and mving faster then punching them in the face perhaps it was the teacher who through YOU out! I would not tolerate that type of behavior in my class.[QUOTE]
Was not doing push hands,I was sparring

Dont know what your motivation is to do that but if you ever wish to cross hands with a mantis practicioner to see how effective mantis is by all means make you way up to NY and I will match you up with some of my begginer students…[/QUOTE]Why your beginner students?Why not you?I’ll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you’re so great:rolleyes:) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu “mystique” you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the “sifu”.

13

I dont think it is so bad that an instructor wont go full contact with his students.

I have students that more than likely can kick my a$$. Doesnt bother me any…in fact I am very proud of it. Isnt that the point…to make your students better than you? If not each generation gets weaker and weaker…with a bunch of idiots representing your style.

The person who trains a student for a year or so…and cant get the student to the level that they can give them a good fight or even defeat them on a good day is holding out or just a TERRIBLE teacher. This is assuming the student is still in his youth, trains hard and fights full contact several times a week. It may also be a little harder if the instructor is 6ft 4in 280lbs going against a 5ft 3in 105lb student…you get the point.

My students show me total respect and have no problem with me not fighting them. They know a big part of the reason they can handle themselves in a full contact situation is because of what I taught them…not because I fought them everyday.

I have a feeling Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr) could have kicked his trainers a$$…but I havnt seen any clips of him talking smack about his teachers.

So, Notanexit…you sound like a fantastic fighter…I would suggest you open your own school and take on all challengers…just hope your not a light contact fighter…could be bad for you.

Or you can take my approach to challenges. If someone wants to fight me they have to start with the lowest ranking beginner and go all the way up through each student in the school. If they can make it and not get defeated…they shoud be so tired by the time they get to me I can just push them over.:slight_smile:

14

Good points Mantid. Cassius Clays long time coach Angelo Dundee more than likely never got in the ring and fought him but coached him to bring out the best in him. Usually great fighters had great coaches. I feel as if my approach to teaching kung fu is more like a coach than teacher. Maybe it was the way I was brought up in America being coached all those years in American sports. I to am very happy with some of my folks and their martial achievements. My goal is for them to be better than me. Ha ha, start the challenge with your lower ranks, your a funny guy Mantid. Knowing you have fearsome german shephards watching over things at your school, not sure if I would make a challenge. :wink:

Shifu taught us a nifty way of applying applications out of a form using “pressing palms”.

15

notanexit,

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I’ll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you’re so great) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu “mystique” you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the “sifu”.

Please understand I am not calling you a beginer or said you cant fight, I dont know you so I will not make these assumptions. But you must realize that you just cant walk into a school off the street and expect the sifu to fight you.
This is never going to happen for many reasons some I will share with you.

1.What person in thier right mind would be…first off, at the skill level to possibly being able to get a few shots in on a sifu and secondly… if they have achieved such a level of skill there will obviously be some respect and dicipline invloved to which they would not have something to prove as well.

2.Why would I waste my time? what do I have to prove to that individal?

  1. I would want to see how this person did aginst my lower level students.. if my students beat them , then again why would I bother. If I am the fastest runner at my school, would the new kid challenge the fastest? no, he would race against the slowest and work up form there, and see where he fit.

  2. Insurance… If it fight someone walking in off the street and split thier head open or break thier nose, who’s to say they wont come back and sue me for my school, my house, and everything I own?

5.Respect… out of respect for onesself these challenges will never work. who needs to show more respect the hot head or the teacher? the hot head could be a crack head while the teacher is a pillar in the community.

So YES thier are bad teachers out there and weak ones who cant fight thier way out of a wet paper bag I know this trust me.
I see them all the time, we have so many crappy MA schools in NY you couldnt imagine and I poke fun at them all the time. We have a kung fu school on my street that wears japanese Gi’s for Christs sake.

But its up to the individual to find what he seeks. thats why I have taught so many experianced MA’s I have taken in 7 BB into my system and re taught them our way, more so than any other school in Buffalo.. Why??? because I am first and foremost a fighter

16

Truth be known, I am always up for a fight. Must be the Irish in me. I can sort of understand the why waist my time thing, and we are looked highly upon in the martial arts world and our students. But I know my Shifu was challenged over and over in Taiwan and fought. So I need to expect this as well. But we are in sue happy America, one needs to be careful. So I think Ill spend my time boxing my guys giving and taking, ah heck sometimes its good to take a shot. Feels good!

17

[QUOTE=mantid1;916203]

So, Notanexit…you sound like a fantastic fighter…I would suggest you open your own school and take on all challengers…just hope your not a light contact fighter…could be bad for you[/QUOTE]
Its not that I’m some great fighter.It’s that I was able to see that the training had flaws.Students spent most of their class time doing techniques that depended on the other students blocking “correctly” so the attacking student could do the next cool move.But when sparring it took them out of that element and they did’nt know what to do.These were not beginners,they were “advanced”.Its a good thing the class was closed to the beginner students.If they saw what I saw they would’ve quit.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;916227]notanexit,

Why your beginner students?Why not you?I’ll answer that for you.If by chance I cross hands with you and if by chance(becuase you’re so great) I get a few shots in on you it will ruin your invincible sifu “mystique” you hold over your students.I know this because whenever someone from another school showed up it was me and a few others who crossed hands with him,not the “sifu”.

Please understand I am not calling you a beginer or said you cant fight, I dont know you so I will not make these assumptions. But you must realize that you just cant walk into a school off the street and expect the sifu to fight you.
This is never going to happen for many reasons some I will share with you.

1.What person in thier right mind would be…first off, at the skill level to possibly being able to get a few shots in on a sifu and secondly… if they have achieved such a level of skill there will obviously be some respect and dicipline invloved to which they would not have something to prove as well.

2.Why would I waste my time? what do I have to prove to that individal?

  1. I would want to see how this person did aginst my lower level students.. if my students beat them , then again why would I bother. If I am the fastest runner at my school, would the new kid challenge the fastest? no, he would race against the slowest and work up form there, and see where he fit.[/QUOTE] From my point of view,if you’re a sifu then you must be good.Most people want to see why you have the title of sifu.We went to different schools, because when a new kid showed up,he would challenge the fastest runners in school.If he wins he makes a name for himself and he immediately makes new friends(especially if he wins).
18

notanexit, Please read this
you said
From my point of view,if you’re a sifu then you must be good.Most people want to see why you have the title of sifu.We went to different schools, because when a new kid showed up,he would challenge the fastest runners in school.If he wins he makes a name for himself and he immediately makes new friends(especially if he wins).

when someone walks in to my school, I will always demonstrate the flavor of our system. This may include me showing them our footwork, counters, blocks, throws, jointlocks etc etc
its apparent that I know what I am doing by the flow, form, confidence and effectivness of my movements.
If this is not enough for them to make a decision to join, I always invite them for a free class or two.
Teachers are judged also by thier students.. if thier students look sloppy or uncoordinated and lack power and technique you know the teacher is either
A. Not good at correcting or doesnt care about perfection ie. BB factory
B. not good a relying the information he has to his students. good MA’s dont always make good teaches and visa versa.

But if that same person walked into my school and asked to actually fight me I would obviously decline.
Not that I dont have total confidence in my abilites, but what good will come out if it?
what if i break his wrist, rib, nose or finger? this is what I target when i fight.
what if I throw him and bruise his lungs when he doesnt know enough to exhale when slamed on his back?
What if i hit this guy and hurt him severally?.. law suit
What if I just beat him and embarass him to the point where hew comes back and throws a rock throgh my plate glass window? or breaks my 2000.00 lighted sign out front?

as I said nothing good will come out of it… OK from your point of view …lets say I do accept to fight and it goes 100% perfectly… he attackes I counter and hit the kid just once we bow and he laughs becuse he knows I won… and he says OK your good eough to teach me where do I sign? what good comes out of that? I satisfy his ego? I get a new student? Hell I get walks in all the time and students join every month.LOL
why woulds I jepordize my entire career and my school for 1 extra student with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove?

You must look at it from a school owners point of view.. not from a angry ex student of another school whos bitter and looking to prove something to himself… I feel thats what you are and that why you are saying what your saying… I understand your resentment but let it go…If you go to a resturant and you dont like the experience for whatever reason dont eat there again… there are plenty of other places to eat.. get rid of the grudge you have your shoulders are only so strong… let go of the weight nontanexit you will feel much better… be well my friend

19

This thread reminds me of a nice quote.

“Somewhere…someone is training harder than you are…and when you meet
him…he will beat you”.

This is a fact…it doesnt matter if you are a teacher or student.

I dont believe in the old saying…“there is always someone out there who can beat you”. I prefer to say “remember…there is probably a million people out there who can beat you…so you are better off keeping your mouth shut”.

Exit…I understand where you are coming from but…there are MANY teachers out there who teach the drills and talk the philosophy that havent experienced the true violence of a fight…and as a result do not know where they stand.

Keeping on topic…I watched a guy who trained in Wing Chun fight in Lei tei. It is a good way of testing your skills because it is fairly unlimited…and you should be able to demonstrate your style. This little dude kicked everybodys a$$. You couldnt tell his style…because when it comes down to it…all of the drills and theory including chi sao taught in class do not work as well as you like to think. The guys who tried to fight with “style” got faces kicked in.

Why did this guy win? Because he was a tiger…trained and fought full contact all of the time and he could take pain.

I saw another guy get his arm broken by a roundhouse kick…what drill or theory would have stopped that?

75% of the drills and other things different styles do is ornamental. I dont have a problem with that…because it is a martial “art” but you have to know where you stand when it comes to combat.

20

True dat! Nice post!