boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits… Speed, relaxation, etc…
If you get knocked out… Is it worth it?
[QUOTE=S.Teebas;1279725]boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits… Speed, relaxation, etc…
If you get knocked out… Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
If whether your have your shoulders up or down is what results in your being knocked out I would say you have other issues to worry about. 
[QUOTE=S.Teebas;1279725]boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits… Speed, relaxation, etc…
If you get knocked out… Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
The issue really isn’t shoulders up, it is leading with your chin.
That said, boxers don’t really “lift” their shoulders, they tuck in their chin.
Keeping your chin up, and by that I mean keeping it and your face in the way they always are, is a very bad habit BUT one that gets taken care of very quickly IF you spar on a regular basis.
It is true that we tend to see too many MA ( not just WC people) fight with their chin up or lead with their face BUT that is simply due to the fact that they don’t spar hard contact enough.
[QUOTE=S.Teebas;1279725]boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits… Speed, relaxation, etc…
If you get knocked out… Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it’s the height of the chin that’s more important.
I’d like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1279729]In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it’s the height of the chin that’s more important.
I’d like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?[/QUOTE]
Responding in good faith without claiming to represent all of wing chun.
Wing Chun is an entirely different system from Muay Thai or Western boxing.
In my wc the head is an integral partof the upper body structure and the spine and neck vertebrae
are balanced accrordingly in keeping with gravity.
Yes the chin is a major vuleranable point but so is the neck, the temple, the eyes, the heart etc etc.
Many wc folks dont understand the important details of the dynamics and geometry of the hand structure.
When the proper two hand structure is dynamically applied- with a properly trained wing chun person
is pretty well protected at the chin, the neck, the chest etc.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1279729]In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.[/QUOTE]
May be you should not allow your opponent’s fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the “rhino guard”, your chin can be far away from your opponent’s reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent’s territory instead.
When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino’s chin and that’s for sure.
[QUOTE=S.Teebas;1279725]boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits… Speed, relaxation, etc…
If you get knocked out… Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]
No, not really.
Lifting both shoulders in boxing is a bad habit, increases tension, reduces power speed and response time
Having said that, some guys (Mayweather - Hopkins - Toney for eg) do use variations of the “philly shell” which uses the lead (front) shoulder to deflect punches.
Heres a good breakdown from FMJ himself;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo
As a few of the other poster have said, its chin down that the really want
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279743]
When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino’s chin and that’s for sure.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe not, but he still tucks it. 
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279743]May be you should not allow your opponent’s fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the “rhino guard”, your chin can be far away from your opponent’s reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent’s territory instead.
When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino’s chin and that’s for sure.
//youtu.be/KoobpbgSrNk
[/QUOTE]
And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go
[QUOTE=GlennR;1279749]And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go[/QUOTE]
hahaha … 
This ‘rhino’ strategy…gives me pause. It seems purely defensive; uses two hands against one; and appears to be “rhino’ing” only the upper gate area.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279743]May be you should not allow your opponent’s fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the “rhino guard”, your chin can be far away from your opponent’s reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent’s territory instead.
When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino’s chin and that’s for sure.
//youtu.be/KoobpbgSrNk
[/QUOTE]
Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279752]Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.[/QUOTE]
Gotta agree.
Seems like a cheap rip off of a Silat entry.
Although, I have never seen a Silat entry employed quite like that.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279752]Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.[/QUOTE]
He’s exploiting the biu sau angle. I mean it shows the angle works. But beyond that please hold your hands like that sparring with me. You’re completely powerless to stop kicks or takedowns.
I think that sometimes people do not realize that some things are not meant to be applied in a static posture.
Take the “X” block. It can be very effective if one employs movement with the technique.
If you just stick your hands out and hold them there you will get hit.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279752]Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.[/QUOTE]
If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent’s face. But the “punching” is not the purpose for this. The “over extended” is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent’s head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.
This strategy may sound like “conservative” from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it’s very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to lock his head. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the “rhino guard” to protect your head, but your opponent’s punch will always expose his head.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279762]If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent’s face. But the “punching” is not the purpose for this. The “over extended” is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent’s head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.
This strategy may sound like “conservative” from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it’s very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to move in for head lock. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the “rhino guard” to protect your head, but your opponent’s punch will always expose his head.
//youtu.be/2n0GnSFmYsc
[/QUOTE]
Ok…
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.
Maybe it is how it is being demo’d…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279765]Ok…
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.
Maybe it is how it is being demo’d…[/QUOTE]
Let’s talk a bit more “abstract” here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent’s ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent’s arms to be outside of your arms. The “rhino guard” just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent’s head.
It doesn’t matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the
- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent’s punch.
When will you “separate” your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent’s head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the …
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279768]Let’s talk a bit more “abstract” here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent’s ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent’s arms to be outside of your arms. The “rhino guard” just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent’s head.
It doesn’t matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the
- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent’s punch.
When will you “separate” your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent’s head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the …[/QUOTE]
The “rhino guard” is nothing new, there are variations of it everywhere ( kali fence, beggars hand, etc) BUT they all have one thing in common that the rhino doesn’t, or I should say that the rhino does something that they don’t: Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don’t see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don’t just mean a punch either.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279775]Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don’t see the disadvantage or issue in that?
[/QUOTE]
This.
What is gained by grabbing the hands together?
Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.
[QUOTE=-N-;1279785]This.
What is gained by grabbing the hands together?
Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.[/QUOTE]
I have tested it in
- 1 big fist locked by fingers,
- 1 palm cover 1 fist,
- 2 connected fists,
- 2 connected palms,
- 2 separate fists,
- 2 separate palms,
I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very “strong” guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.
There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent’s action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1279775]You don’t see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don’t just mean a punch either.[/QUOTE]
If my opponent throws kick, I won’t drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent’s fake punch can expose his head, I’ll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent’s head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won’t be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don’t need any punching power for that.