For those that watched the recent UFC and saw Cro Crop get knocked out by a round kick to the head. There is a basic wing chun concept or method that may have saved him. Of course nothing is 100% and nothing works all the time.
My question is really directed at those that are crittical of wing chun. I would like to know if they understand what they critisize or apply wing chun in the same fashion that I do.
So the question is how would wing chun have saved CroCrop?
Well, Hunt…I gotta tell you that first of all, it looked like Cro Cop was seriously exposed in that fight. Either he was just having a really bad day (I saw him on the attack only once)…or he’s been exposed.
Because Gonzaga kept throwing the jab/cross over and over again and Cro cop had no answer for it. None. He just kept circling/backing away.
And finally he throws a roundhouse kick that’s caught/captured…and he’s down on his back in guard getting hammered by elbow strikes. (The standup was a gift by the referee - for without it I think he’d still be down eating elbows as we speak).
And within perhaps maybe 20 seconds of the standup - he gets caught by the same kind of roundhouse kick to the head that he usually does to end fights - and that was it.
So firstly - he had no clue about how to deal with an aggressive jab/cross.
Secondly - he turned INTO the roundhouse to his head without any hands/arms up…making himself a sitting duck for the knockout.
[QUOTE=hunt1;756875]
So the question is how would wing chun have saved CroCrop?[/QUOTE]
It would not have. Crocop would knock the sh!t out of 99.9% of wing chun guys (I’m not saying there is no chance for exception, but ALMOST no chance.)
Crocop had a bad day. Upsets happen, especially this year, GSP losing to Serra, Gomi to Diaz, it’s not that crocop is not skilled. He has fought the best heavyweights in the world. Period. And done well against almost all of them. (ko’ed by Randleman and decision to Emelienenko)
Hunt 1
Havent seen the clip as of yet. Dont know where it is.
Good question-but for any serious conversation-the forum seems to have passed a point of no return
With good wishes, joy chaudhuri
He has fought the best heavyweights in the world. Period. And done well against almost all of them. (ko’ed by Randleman and decision to Emelienenko)
Armbarred by Nogueira. Lost to Hunt.
Wins:
Beat Barnett. Yoshida I wouldn’t call a top heavyweight. Silva not really a heavyweight. Minowa really not a heavyweight.
Randleman not really top heavyweight.
He beat Coleman a couple of years ago. Does that count? By that time I wouldn’t have classed Coleman as a top heavyweight.
Because Gonzaga kept throwing the jab/cross over and over again and Cro cop had no answer for it. None. He just kept circling/backing away.
I don’t think Gonzaga landed in any of those exchanges.
Gonzaga nailed him with plenty of damaging elbows on the ground though.
But all in all he just got caught.
CC must have learnt that hands down style of WC.
Hunt 1
Saw the clip of the kick/knockout. Post facto- CC was standing frozen relative to his opponent even when the kick was beginning. Lack of balanced motion-including footwork.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Edmund;756912]Armbarred by Nogueira. Lost to Hunt.
Wins:
Beat Barnett. Yoshida I wouldn’t call a top heavyweight. Silva not really a heavyweight. Minowa really not a heavyweight.
Randleman not really top heavyweight.
He beat Coleman a couple of years ago. Does that count? By that time I wouldn’t have classed Coleman as a top heavyweight.
I don’t think Gonzaga landed in any of those exchanges.
Gonzaga nailed him with plenty of damaging elbows on the ground though.
But all in all he just got caught.
CC must have learnt that hands down style of WC.[/QUOTE]
What about Remi Bonjowski, Jerome Lebanner, and Ernesto Hoost? They aren’t top heavyweights. Picking stupid arguments. Shame.
Although Cro-cop has improved a lot over the years, I still think he’s a couple-of-tricks-pony. As Edmund just pointed out, he hasn’t really beaten any top-notch heavyweights. I was really impressed that he managed to go the distance with Fedor - reckon it’ll be curtains the next time they meet.
How wing chun might have helped Cro-cop had he ever done it is possibly the most ridiculous question I’ve heard on here! How anything would have helped him: he should’ve moved his body rather than just dropping his arm to try and absorb a non-existant mid-roundhouse… :rolleyes: Easier said than done!
No. Gonzaga didn’t really land anything with the jab/crosses (perhaps once)…but my point was that he kept Cro Cop on defense and totally out of rhythm (and out of attack mode) with the persistent jab/cross routine.
In fact, Cro Cop’s only offense the whole fight (the roundhouse to the mid section that Gonzaga caught and brought Mirko down with)…was really a very half-a55ed attempt to score - and had not been set up at all.
You could tell he was frustrated and just “threw something”.
In answer to Hunt’s first post…perhaps some aggressive pak sao and follow-up punches against the jab/cross might have made the outcome of the fight different (pure speculation, of course)…
since just retreating/circling/getting frustrated clearly didn’t cut it.
I have not seen the fight (yet) but from how others are describing it… Bat Jum Daos? 
Yeah, I’ve got nothin’ constructive to offer.
Got to agree with Mirko being off his game and that he’s not in the top 5 heavyweights…
…as for entertaining the ‘how would WC have saved him?’ question, double guan sau’s, advancing inside the kicking arc, and punches/elbows to finish.
…other options;
off-lining away from kick and toward opponent with attack (escrima)
drop under and attack other leg for single leg take down (wrestling/jj)
or, block and counter with spinning back kick (karate, a la Marko Lala)
…just some, there are countless options. The point is, I don’t like confining it to one ‘style’, there are many possibilities and I wish to remain open to any of them (as I imagine any mma fighter would as well).
At a basic level, what would have saved CroCop was blocking/protecting his head.
First time poster, been “lurking” (if that’s the correct term, I’m not much for blogging) for a while. I think this forum, in spite of all the arguing, is very, very informative.
My background - high school wrestling, sport karate, lots of free-sparring in college, got whooped by a couple of kyokushin cats from Japan, started to train with them, graduated and concentrated on music, started a career (not in music), got away from music, started up lifting & MA again to stay in shape, found TWC and have been training for almost 4 years as a long-distance student as I don’t live close to my instructor who I see as often as time permits. So, I am NOT an expert on fighting, nor think I could complete against world class athletes, nor do I train because I’m afraid that ninja will drop from trees and attack me at random (besides, I do have a discover card in case of that), blah, blah, blah. Personally, I train because it’s FUN. Ok, sorry to bore everyone with the loser details…
Cro Cop’s fight: I don’t think anything other than moving out of the way would have stopped that kick. It was a text-book, power round house, perfectly timed, thrown, and followed-through. Even if Cro Cop saw it, and put some kind of block up, I don’t think that would have changed the outcome. In TWC, the basic technique that I have been shown would be to face the incoming kick while using a double pak sao. But, I don’t think it would have helped - may have even taken damage to the hands / arms / shoulder from absorbing the blow. Like previously posted: it’s purely speculation at this point.
Joy I think you are right about the forum. I am trying to get a feel for how others understand and apply wing chun. Trying to correct how I see others posts.
Some good posts so far some not so good. Some didnt even understand the question which may be why so many threads devolve into my way or the highway threads.
Before I give my follow up doing to wait to see if the big critics weigh in.
[QUOTE=hunt1;756931]Some good posts so far some not so good. Some didnt even understand the question which may be why so many threads devolve into my way or the highway threads.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should specify in your question, WC ‘techniques’ or WC ‘concepts’, or both, perhaps?
the 21CWCIJ is not going to like this…
[QUOTE=bodhitree;756921]What about Remi Bonjowski, Jerome Lebanner, and Ernesto Hoost? They aren’t top heavyweights. Picking stupid arguments. Shame.[/QUOTE]Sorry, I was talking UFC/Pride, not K1. I like K1 but it’s a different kettle of fish.
Whatever. If you think more theoretical what-ifs will help contribute serious discussion, knock yourself out!
But let’s play:
from my exp full-contact MMA sparring (of course using WC when and where appropriate) -
I am aggressive and not so good against kicks, so I always move in and cramp up the space by going for the elbows, then takedown ASAP. Cro-cop coming from Pride prob doesn’t have so much exp with elbows, and isn’t the best at takedowns either. His game is longer range, but unfortunately he got played there too.
Other options: step in and off at an angle with any diffuse shot to just above the knee. I’ve done this on full speed roundhouses with a tan wedged tight into my body (stepping in so you can get the knee before it comes up so high) - it’s not a classic tan, but it’s not far off what Sam Kwok used to teach as a dispersing tan. You can reinforce it with a bong elbow to above the knee too. That leaves you open to ****ing up the clinch position which invariably follows when you both move in, unless you drop for a takedown. Either way, you need crazy speed, and I’ve been nailed trying this many times which’ll get you a dead arm or KOed.
Step off at an angle and kick **** out of his post leg. Simple. Works, if you have a good kick.
High bong (of course whilst stepping off and counterpunching soon after). Seen a lot of MMA fighters use something similar recently.
Double fuk sao (same with the footwork)… more like a ‘classic’ guard.
Rush in like a madman and go for a takedown: pulled that off a couple of times, but at my (relatively low) skill level more by luck than judgment I reckon.
There you go: multiple options as usual for what if scenarios. The problem lies more in what combos the other guy has been softening you up with, so what he’s ‘training’ you to expect than some cookie cutter response to a single attack!
[QUOTE=hunt1;756875]For those that watched the recent UFC and saw Cro Crop get knocked out by a round kick to the head. There is a basic wing chun concept or method that may have saved him. Of course nothing is 100% and nothing works all the time.
My question is really directed at those that are crittical of wing chun. I would like to know if they understand what they critisize or apply wing chun in the same fashion that I do.
So the question is how would wing chun have saved CroCrop?[/QUOTE]
Cro Cop dropped his hands, the kick came over and landed perfectly… simple mistake, simple ending.
Theoretically, anything that would have forced him to keep his hands up would have helped him (which is most realistic fighting methods). Unfortunately, in real fighting, you sometimes drop your hands. At the wrong time against the wrong opponent, it ends up being lights out.
The key to beating Cro Cop, as several fighters have figured out, is zoning away from and/or nullifying his left kick.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;756950]Cro Cop dropped his hands, the kick came over and landed perfectly… simple mistake, simple ending.
Theoretically, anything that would have forced him to keep his hands up would have helped him (which is most realistic fighting methods). Unfortunately, in real fighting, you sometimes drop your hands. At the wrong time against the wrong opponent, it ends up being lights out.
The key to beating Cro Cop, as several fighters have figured out, is zoning away from and/or nullifying his left kick.[/QUOTE]
And “concepts” won’t keep your hands up – that comes from training.
As far as WCK having the “concept” of keeping the hands up, look at how many WCK people use the mun (tan) and wu sao, silly-ass bi-jong posture! (And don’t even think a wu sao will be able to deal with that powerful of a kick; it will knock right through your wu sao).
Keeping your hands up for protection is not a “concept” IMO, it is a necessity (sort of like the “concept” of keeping your eyes open) and needs to be coupled with head/body movement to be effective, and anyone who spars with good people will see that necessity for themselves rather quickly.
BTW, my belief is that CroCop “thought” that kick was a feint for a shoot (which worked against him before, so he thought his opponent who would have known that, might try it) and dropped his hands “early” in anticipation of that shoot.
The only WC technique that would have saved him would have been Victor’s patented super-duper, heavy-duty head protector.
Good to see so many informative and civil posts for a change,except for Punch and his catty snide comments but he may have learned his wing chun in a sorority house.
I was looking for concept instead of technique since for me technique is adaptable to the situation. There is no one way to do something. What ever saves my teeth is correct at the time.
In my Wing Chun and that is all I am referring too. We cover we do not block. Cro Crop dropped his elbow either because he was trying to block the kick or possible as TN suggested to defend a take down. It is clear he was responding to the motion of the leg. This is a clear example of why we cover and never try to block. A block is at best an educated guess. Cro Crop guessed wrong. If he covered the side the kick was attacking instead he never would have dropped his arms.
Perhaps the kick would have injured his arm ,it happens but he wouldnt have been knocked cold. Also since he saw the kick coming he could have moved his body whether away from,into or merely shifting is dependent upon fatique.
Anyway was really just trying to get a read on peoples outlook ,understanding and application of wing chun. Hellps to know where folks are coming from.
[QUOTE=hunt1;757015]Good to see so many informative and civil posts for a change,except for Punch and his catty snide comments but he may have learned his wing chun in a sorority house.
I was looking for concept instead of technique since for me technique is adaptable to the situation. There is no one way to do something. What ever saves my teeth is correct at the time.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I don’t follow – you are looking for concept . . . since technique is adaptable? Are you saying that you think “coveriing” is a concept?
In my Wing Chun and that is all I am referring too. We cover we do not block. Cro Crop dropped his elbow either because he was trying to block the kick or possible as TN suggested to defend a take down. It is clear he was responding to the motion of the leg. This is a clear example of why we cover and never try to block. A block is at best an educated guess. Cro Crop guessed wrong. If he covered the side the kick was attacking instead he never would have dropped his arms.
Perhaps the kick would have injured his arm ,it happens but he wouldnt have been knocked cold. Also since he saw the kick coming he could have moved his body whether away from,into or merely shifting is dependent upon fatique.
I agree with you that reaching for punches or kicks, which is involved in “blocking”, is a cardinal error in fighting on the outside, regardless of a person’s style or maritial art. Using distance, evasions, covering, etc., especially when working in concert, is lower risk and higher percentage.
Seeing that we agree on this point, do you still think it wise to teach “techniques” and drills where the trainee reaches/blocks?