How should we(i)(you) react against some one that knows some kind of grapling MA (BJJ mainly) and he is aiming to drag in you in the floor?
I do bjj. its a great add on to wc. There are lots of things including the judging of distance etc. One i like to use to stop shoots is to go to a low horse stance as the shoot comes in take a half step back at the same time deliver a strike to the back of the head as well as doin a garn sau to redirect the force off. Put the garn into he neck area if any of this makes sense
sprawl!
The problem I have with a reply to this question is that there is not enough information to what has led up to the confrontation.
I understand Viper’s response and can visualise it being sucesssful, my own initial response is an elbow to the head. Whether that is to the nose, side of the head, or back of the head, it depends upon line of attack.
That is if it is they who have moved in first to break down the distance between you.
If the fight has psychologically began but there has been no actual physical movement, then depending on range, you can initiate an attack with a kick to the ankle/knee/pelvis followed by strike to eyes/throat/solar plexus/floating ribs and depending upon the result of the entry techniques and the ability of the opponent, apart from your own experience of fighting, you should control the elbows and select available targets to hit.
If they have the advantage of getting a grip on you, take the fingers individually and dislocate them, for any hints as to the vulverability of NHB or any other fighting system, look at their rules of competition and learn, boxers tell you that the lower abdominal region is susceptible (below the belt), and using the phoenix eye can have the required effect, also the back of the head/neck (rabbit punch).
My view has always been and always will be is that if you know you are in a fight what are you waiting for! If you wait for a BJJ, they will ground you and choke you out, a boxer will punch you out, Thai boxers or TKD will kick you out, if they have any advantages do not play in their back gardens, understand YOUR abilities and apply them where YOU feel best suited.
There are so many parameters to real fighting that there can never be a simple response to the question in this thread, it is my view that the more prepared you are the better you will be able to survive a situation you have not been shown before, we all know the answers to yesterdays crossword when we have todays infront of us, the trick is having the depth of knowledge and experience to answer the questions when they appear and not ending up in the obituary column.
Go learn grappling.
LOL
That’s funny! Good one!
Theres a move (called a quarter nelson in some circles) which IME works quite well against a shoot. One hand gets an underhook, the other pushes his head down as he comes in, the underhook hand grabs the forearm of the hand that is on his head and you take a step across and make a scopping action with your hand to twist his head and turn him over. Alternatively once you have secured the proper grip you can step off line and knee him in the head. Its simliar to a helicopter throw in silat except I think its much higher percentage. As always though its not fool-proof and requires practice, the correct timing etc.
Against upper body clinches/tie ups if a good wrestler gets a body lock on you and you havent wrestled yourself then in all probability you are going down. Learning to swim your hands for an underhook is a good drill to practice to defend the bodylock and doesnt take long to learn.
If you dont know what the hell im talking about when I say shoot, underhook etc. buy and watch an elementary grappling instructional DVD (e.g. one with Dan Gable) to get an idea. Or the book ‘winning wrestling moves’ is a good primer.
And dont accept advice about how to deal with a wrestler from someone who has never trained in it or at the very least spent time sparring against it - you will get a theoretical speculative answer based on ‘deadly moves’ that could ‘never be used in the UFC’
My Take
There is no magic answer but IME a good sprawl and an elbow to the back of the head and or neck / or thereabouts is a good reaction. Thats for a shoot.
Stepping ofline using the triangle horse or basic side step also minimises the chance you will get hooked, perhaps turning it to a single leg takedown if your elbow doesnt land :rolleyes:
Against upper body clinch - if you are going down. straight out of CQB techniques eye gouge, bite, neck crank, throat grab you dont have much time but any of these is better than nothing.
Nothing is full proof but thats my opinion.
How should we(i)(you) react against some one that knows some kind of grapling MA (BJJ mainly) and he is aiming to drag in you in the floor?
Grapplers know better than anyone else how to defend against other grapplers, since they deal with them all the time in training.
Seek some basic instruction in the art, and you’ll be much better equipped to deal with its attacks than will a ideological purist who does not.
the best way to react to a grappler if you are a pure wing chun man, is to tap.
try to avoid speculation and conjecture. IMO, the only way to train against takedown and to work fighting from the clinch, is to go into a good grappling club and train. this is the best environment for you to ‘test’ your wing chun when moving.
good grapplers know how to avoid being hit, or how to minimize the damage they receive. i dont think elbowing to the back of the head will achieve anything, especially if the grappler has removed your legs from the ground. your strikes will not be powerful if you are off balance.
learn how to sprawl.
if you are set on just trying to train stand up against groundfighting, then find the best fighter in your area. one who is able to use striking whilst preventing a takedown. then watch/model/learn his movements.
Hehehe, very true.
Sprawl. Some biu gee mechanics can be used in that but it’s kind of like reinventing the wheel, and definitely learn it from grapplers, not chunners (unless they’re grapplers too).
The quarter nelson thing (I always knew it as kaiten-nage in aikido) can work, as does swimming to get position in the first place. Again, IF you get instruction from a grappler first and IF you think it helps I find kao sao and double gan sao useful mechanics for swimming and quarter nelson… Don’t forget, being good at swimming doesn’t mean you can finish. But swimming can be used to get out of the situation as well as to get advantageous positioning. Of course, if you practice clinching in your wing chun that should help, but unfortunately you probably don’t!
The stepping off and garn to the back of the head/behind the ear, or an elbow to a similar area will only work against somebody who is really bad at shooting/takedowns. If you are training for self defence, this means it’s not a waste of time to learn it (average frat boy too drunk to remember his wrestling or whatever), but if you’re training to fight trained grapplers (in a ring or whatever) it will get you a beating and make you look stupid!
Grapplin etc
Grappling, wrestling, shoots, clinchs, throws, takedowns, reaps and sweeps are all concentrated on fully in your local BJJ class.
Go there tonight, take a towel and plenty of water, and dont try to think that chi-sau will save you!
The Goose
From my experience it is important to control a grapplers shoot by eliminating their target (your legs / torso) and controlling their head. An experienced Bjj fighter can deal with spawls that tend to rely heavily on body mass alone.
As a wing chunner, your strengths are strikes so it’s important to control the head of the shooter. Don’t try to stop the head with an open hand as this will cause injury. Use a combination of a sunken elbow to the oncoming collarbone aswell as a neck controlling hand (fook sau) behind the head. Simultaneousley jumping a half step backwards with both legs. The neck pulling hand opens the shooters exposed face that is away from your body leaving an open target for a strike.
i found some vids for consideration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjux_y5Xp64&search=bjj%20vs%20kung%20fu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjXUCjLgyis&search=bjj%20vs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI&search=bjj%20vs
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3747092207213485 520
what are the mistakes? why they end up in the floor?
Forgive me if I don’t wish to get hot, sweaty and roll around the floor with other guys and my chi sau/wing chun skills have always worked against aggressive jui jit su and trained grapplers that I have come into contact with.
Each to their own, I prefer to work on real fighting scenarios and learning to finish the conflict within the first 2-3 seconds at most, if I get into grappling then I will bite/gouge/break or rip anything I can get a hold of.
Then again I teach violence without aggression, I don’t believe in sparring as unless it is controlled and managed by a professional instructor it can create the wrong sort of response in real situations, if you are constantly training to hold back on a technique can you be certain when push comes to shove that you won’t hit light and if you train full power striking in your training, have you considered the psychological efects of week in week out trying to punch your friends head in.
If we are talking real fighting or recreational activities, we all have different preferences, ideologies and freedom of choice, I believe I have it said before and I will say it many times in the future, what is important is the understanding of SELF.
If you enjoy the way you train that is great, but don’t deny others their abilities judged against your experiences, I have students who teach sparring and are part of the NHB scene and when they come with questions I answer them as best I can using my background knowledge and experience of fighting and in the past that has normally been followed by “Hey that works!”
As with my first bit in this thread, it is too open a question to define with one answer, and if we all believe in what we are doing then WE ARE ALL RIGHT in our approaches, as an instructor it is my job to get students to believe in technique and training, both theoretical and practical. If a student has a doubt or questions anything then it is up to me to make them understand the practicallity and that does not mean punching them on the nose and saying “That’s how! I can do it so you should be able to.”
It has been my opinion for many years that chi sau is a form of grappling without holding on for longer than it takes to have the required effect to open up a line of attack to strike, longer than a fraction of a second and it becomes a strength issue but now I am getting into another field.
I think the biggest difference between grapplers and the majority of WC schools is what I call “THE INTENTION” behind the training, I try to instil an understanding of the violence of every action, developing a visualisation of what a student is trying to achieve with a technique,which then can be used in any situation rather than a specific application from the form, which is why it does not concern me if I am on my feet or on the floor (I know where I prefer to be), I will apply my knowledge as best I can to survive the confrontation.
Go grapple with grapplers, I don’t think so, get them to chi sau with me, its what I do for a living, lol.
Getting hot and sweaty are by products of vigorous exercise. I would question anyone who says they ‘train’ in MA and never gets hot and sweaty. As for the rolling around on the floor with other guys part each to their own but dont knock it until youve tried it.
Grappling takes place in real fight scenarios all the time in fact I would say its just as prevalent as striking since after the initial flurry there is usually a clinch followed by one or both parties going to the ground. Yes it would be great if you could finish the fight straight away but things dont always go the way you plan. For example even if you arent fighting a skilled grappler you may be tackled from behind, you might slip over (has happened to me in fights before) or you may be fighting someone with a hard chin who can take the first chain punches and clinch with you
In terms of standing grappling a properly executed double neck tie, body lock or penetration step will not give you the room or opportunity to bite gouge tear rip whatever. In terms of grappling on the floor a properly executed pin will also not allow you the room or opportunity to do any of these things. If you think you can do these things I would question your knowledge of grappling. Moreover whoever has the better position will be able to do these things too only with a lot more effectiveness.
tj, if you train wing chun’s close range stuff you must train clinches no?
If you get close range with someone in a bar fight, they’ll try and grab you, and then even getting away from this effectively, or keeping your ‘ideal’ chi sao distance can only be trained by training clinch work. And wing chun is very well suited to clinch work, right?
Same with grappling.
I’ll repeat myself. The kao sao and double gaun work well into a wrestling swimming drill. But if you never train wrestling, or swimming, or clinch work, you’d never know this. You can try reinventing the wheel and working out that for yourself, and even if you’re successful, you still won’t know what to do or how to use it when you have the advantageous position.
And while your techs will work fine your average bar fighter, all it takes is someone trained in grappling or an unlucky slip and your years of training will be ****ed.
And with respect, all your talk of INTENTION is bull. Jujutsuka don’t train with intention, because they train to COMPLETE THE ACTION. So how do you reckon chunners training to intend to hurt someone is more realistic than someone training to hurt someone?! 
:rolleyes: 
All the biting, gouging and hairpulling will just make you look like a biotch when your elbow snaps. It’s like your comments on the rattan rings thread: you just see something and without having experienced it you think you’re qualified to talk about it. But I bet we have to experience the power of YOUR wing chun to know how your wing chun is so much better than all the other wing chunners who’ve been taken down and submitted at will in umpteen live environments…?!
As for this:
I have students who teach sparring and are part of the NHB scene and when they come with questions I answer them as best I can using my background knowledge and experience of fighting and in the past that has normally been followed by “Hey that works!”
I don’t follow the relevance of it. Plus, which students, which NHB, and what do you mean by ‘who teach sparring’? Nobody teaches sparring as a separate skill!
And tj, frame this please, and put it in your kwoon!
Good jujutsuka operate from the same distance as your ideal chi sao distance, plus any other distances! They go for centreline naturally and not in as contrived a manner and are probably more soft and flowing and adaptable than most chunners.
knees and elbows
Either learn some grappling or learn some Jeet Kune Do (JKD) which has it’s roots and foundations in Wing Chun. In Jeet Kune Do there are traps as well as some grappling. I know wrestling with some BJJ and am currently training in JKD and if someone were to shoot on me I would either knee to the head followed with elbow to the head, side step with kick to the head or just a straight kick to the head as the opponent is coming in. In the real world you would not want to go to the ground as the opponent may have friends that will help. This is were the JKD is very effective for me as we are taught to intercept not only the attack but the intention of the attack. Example: If someone starts to shoot their arms are usually out to their sides with the head down. This leaves the centerline open for attack; yes you do go into the clutch zone but most grapplers expect you to evade or sprawl, not to attack. If you know chi sao then you should know plenty of traps already. As far as going to a horse stance I don’t see how you fight from this. Your centerline is open to a hook kick as well as your foot position is terrible for evasion.
Kent
What you just posted, after your initial “learn some grappling” bit was yet more unproven speculation. This time it was JKD based speculation. The whole idea of angling off and hitting on the way in has been tested to death in MMA matches and shown to be very low percentage.
The bottom line is that you have got to actually do lots of standup grappling to get any good at it. Really this means joining a wrestling or judo club and attending classes for a while. A kung fu man with theories will have absolutely zero chance at preventing the takedown of an athletic man who is used to taking people down (wrestler, footballer, rugby player, judoka etc).
This strange idea that there is something “hidden” in kung fu above and beyond what mere wrestling teaches about avoiding takedowns is really rubbish and a very damaging idea in the kung fu community as a whole.