Grappling is considered by many to be the Achilles heel of Wing Chun. So many WC students and WC styles try to supplement their art with ground tech.
I think this is unnecessary , because good Wing Chun does not need to go to the ground. If your opponent can get past the WC kicks, punches, elbows and knees to take you down, its not lack of grappling skills that lost the day, but lack of WC skills.
A Chinese teacher told me once that Americans know allot, but Master little. You can try to be a Jack of all trades or you can concentrate and perfect your Wing Chun. Grappling is just one of the fighting ranges, it is no better or worst.
It is part of a dying fad now. In the 60’s there was Karate, the 70’s Kung fu, the 80’s ninjujitsu, the 90’s Brazilian Jujitsu and next will be Krav Maga .
Wing Chun is enough, if you want to supplement your style, go to the shooting range.
Good points Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun would agree with you too.
Folks who see flaws in wing chun grappling have flaws in their own wing chun development. However, I dont blame those with pot holes in their path to try out mma because their paths/pot holes may not be fixable.And note: it doesnt hurt to experiment some. But if you learn good wing chun I think that you will find that many of the best
principles of other arts are already there in wing chun.,properly understood.
Wing Chun was not developed to be effective against only wing chun. Good wing chun people I know have tested their preparation against other stylists.Wing chun when pursued well simply maximizes the use of the human body… and its “psychological” and internal principles teaches you to adjust to what is there.
If you dont learn to stand well and move well yes you can be taken down. If by sheer chance you fall or are taken down (gang or multiple attackers in some but not all cases)good
wing chun can bail you out on strikes, bars and chokes- and when you can- you can get up.
Wing chun is not technique based and prepares YOU for any encounter from any direction.
Re: Grappling Overrated
Originally posted by Ng Mui
… if you want to supplement your style, go to the shooting range.
Seems we are of common mind and spirit on the gravity of the matter.
Regards,
- kj
Achilles heel
I think this would depend on what group of WC people you are speaking about. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe any Wing Chun system has ground fighting such as maybe BJJ, but I am one of those people who believe that the stand-up training can be transferred to the ground.
I think if you believe that you can or will never be taken to the ground, then you are very naive. Yes, Wing Chun may be a great art, and some may even say that it is perfect, but you and I are still human. And let’s not forget humans are not so perfect and make errors. I remember my Sifu telling me that if you followed all of Wing Chun’s principles perfectly, you would never lose a fight. Right after that he said, the unfortunate side is humans make errors and aren’t perfect. But, I understood his point.
Don’t get me wrong, I am one of those people that believe through training hard, one can and will become better with their stand-up, and possibly need less ground work. But, to think they won’t need it or can’t be taken to the ground, I believe they will have a rude awakening if and when they come against a good grappler. Just my opinion though.
Re: Grappling Overrated
Originally posted by Ng Mui
A Chinese teacher told me once that Americans know allot, but Master little. You can try to be a Jack of all trades or you can concentrate and perfect your Wing Chun. Grappling is just one of the fighting ranges, it is no better or worst.
Knowing both stand-up fighting and ground work doesn’t mean that you’re a Jack of all trades. I believe you can focus on both ranges and master them quite flawlessly. Apparently there are systems which emphasize both stand-up fighting and grappling - so are you saying that no one can master a system like this? I agree with you that it’s better to specialize in something rather than being a Jack of all trades, but knowing these two ranges isn’t really that broad. My personal opinion is that one should know both of these ranges in order to safely be a well-rounded martial artist.
ng,not so sure about krav maga [as karate,in hebrew]being
the next “big thing”.ive just seen a mini docu about the style
on a tv programme in the uk.it was an utter mix of many
martial arts.from the wck class ive just had and the person
in the docu,it was nothing as sly and mean as wck.
as for the grapple thought,most people can study [properly]
two martial arts at a time,if you practice strike why not add
a grapple/ground?
captain- because wing chun is not just about striking.
Ng Mui :
A Chinese teacher told you once that Americans know alot, but Master little......
That's BULL....!
Moy Yat used to try and sell that nonsense to his students during my 8 years at his school…
…and what it is …is reverse rascism…that is an attempt to escape one’s own feelings of inferiority…
In your case…the person who said that was trying to cover up the fact that he doesn’t…KNOW HOW TO WRESTLE!
Don’t buy into the poison …
-Victor
C’mon. “American” is not a racial term, irrespective of the merits
of the observation.
yuanfen
Simply put, but very true.
yuanfen
You posted right before I did…causing me to explain now. LOL!
I was referring to your statement about Wing Chun not being just about striking.
People who dismiss grappling arts as unnecessary usually haven’t trained in them for any appreciable amount of time. They should definatley not be overlooked IMO. Talk is cheap, but the proof is out there, a good grappler will more often than not be able to take down a striker. That can’t be disputed. I think more of us should come to the realisation that WC and grappling arts don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Learning BJJ groundfighting won’t affect the way you do your WC, will it??? Similarly, there’s no reason why you can’t apply WC principles and techniques on the ground, in addition to grappling techniques, as and when appropriate.
Anyway, just some thoughts,
Regards,
pseudo
Hi Pseudoswitch,
Originally posted by pseudoswitch
People who dismiss grappling arts as unnecessary usually haven’t trained in them for any appreciable amount of time.
That’s not true in my case. I’d say those who think they need to supplement Wing Chun with grappling don’t have good Kung Fu. That’s not necessarily their fault. It’s hard to find, and when found, hard to learn.
[B]
They should definatley not be overlooked IMO. Talk is cheap, but the proof is out there, a good grappler will more often than not be able to take down a striker.
[/B]
I don’t know about a “striker,” but a good skilled Wing Chun person, no, not likely. The grappler would never get in and take the punishment, IMHO. Good Wing Chun can make you fight as if you were 100 pounds heavier. If all else is equal and your opponent is 100 pounds heavier and you grapple with him, you will likely lose. Using Wing Chun, you may have a chance.
[B]
That can’t be disputed.
[/B]
Oops. :rolleyes: LOL!
[B]
I think more of us should come to the realisation that WC and grappling arts don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Learning BJJ groundfighting won’t affect the way you do your WC, will it???
[/B]
Yes it will.
[B]
Similarly, there’s no reason why you can’t apply WC principles and techniques on the ground, in addition to grappling techniques, as and when appropriate.
[/B]
Except for the addition of “grappling techniques,” I agree with this statement.
[B]
Anyway, just some thoughts,
[/B]
It’s good you’re thinking. 
I think that the only thing ever lacking in Wing Chun is good teachers with its complete understanding. I do see vulnerabilities to grappling attacks in most people’s Wing Chun in lack of a good horse and lack of power in their strikes—two related problems.
Naturally if you let a grappler get you in a choke or successive arm bars, you’re done if the grappler has a clue. Also, it is possible to retain some Wing Chun structure on the ground.
Regards,
Hi Grendel,
Which grappling art/s have you studied, and in what way does studying a grappling art interfere with one’s WC training/performance?
By rigorously & systematically examining & practising the application of the principles of your Martial Art to the environment you wish to master, whether you are standing upright, or “Grappling” on the floor, you will find the answers within the principles.
If it isn’t working for you at the moment, then with perseverance and further embodiment of those principles you will evolve beyond where you have been in violation of the systems principle criteria and therefore taken advantage of.
Ultimately it’s a fluid application of principles from which the techniques flows.
It’s all in there
can i add my two cents - hope i’m not off topic..
i find that a lot of WC people dont like to get into holds and grapples because ‘its not wing chun’ and so they confident pak and lop etc..
for my own part i love to be put in holds just so i can see which way the energy is moving, this is odne with pretty low quality JJ people, but the concept is to be grappled in chi sau and just listen to your body.
theres no subsitute for good (perfect?)wing chun which stops you being grappled in the first place, but it is useful to know how a grab works.
in many basic ones, by moving with the energy you are not hurt at all, you are tied up but then so is the other guy who has to ‘hold’ you, when he changes you change because you are relaxed and sticking to his energy.
i always try to use my chi sau in any situation, i just wish there were more styles with something akin to chi sau, and ego’s to match the relaxation to play with!
Originally posted by pseudoswitch
[B]Hi Grendel,
Which grappling art/s have you studied, and in what way does studying a grappling art interfere with one’s WC training/performance? [/B]
Wrestling, JJ, Judo, Street Fighting
I also used to be a “condition” athlete and looked it, running cross-country, playing water polo, swimming in competition, and power lifting to supplement my judo training when I was at that stage. But, it wasn’t until I began to seriously study Wing Chun that I really began to understand control of my body, which is the precondition to effective control of others.
I believe that grappling arts require considerable conditioning and strength training. That interferes through the time it takes away from training Wing Chun and the different muscular development. Perhaps I’ve never really refined my “grappling” to the level of any art, but with few exceptions, when doing just grappling, strength seems to rule the day. This being the case, this is diametrically opposed to Wing Chun principles. As you know, Wing Chun is not about using gross muscle power, but rather about using structure and position to overcome speed and strength. It is said that Yip Man was good at that. 
If you ask me if I think you can do both in combination, I’d answer a qualified “yes,” but if you ask me if your Wing Chun will reach a level of mastery doing so, I’d give you an unqualified “no.”
Most people never grasp the most subtle and important aspects of Wing Chun. Grappling is much easier to comprehend, and so when push comes to shove, I think that is what would be used, giving away a huge advantage. My opinion is only reinforced by the limited success of Wing Chun trained fighters in competition. I see them abandon Wing Chun—trying to outgrapple the grapplers, not using refined Wing Chun skill which requires body unity, good structure, position, and footwork.
Regards,
Hi Grendel,
Originally posted by Grendel
[B]
when doing just grappling, strength seems to rule the day. This being the case, this is diametrically opposed to Wing Chun principles. As you know, Wing Chun is not about using gross muscle power, but rather about using structure and position to overcome speed and strength. [/B]
I see what you are trying to say, but isn’t strength or power in WC a by-product of speed?
If you ask me if I think you can do both in combination, I’d answer a qualified “yes,” but if you ask me if your Wing Chun will reach a level of mastery doing so, I’d give you an unqualified “no.”
So what you are saying is that if a person studies a grappling art, were strength is the primarily developed attribute, he/she will automatically attempt to use brute strength when performing their WC? This seems to infer that the person has very limited awareness of WC principles and does not have much concious control of their physical expression.
I see them abandon Wing Chun—trying to outgrapple the grapplers, not using refined Wing Chun skill which requires body unity, good structure, position, and footwork.
You’re not from Yip Chun lineage are you? 
There are many WC schools who seem to neglect the importance of power and strength in their practice. Yes stucture and postioning and very important, but without a fair amount of strength, speed and power, it aint gonna do you much good. How about: Unity > Good Structure > Postion > Footwork > Speed > Power.
Peace,
pseudo
Exceptionally well put, Grendel.
- kj
Grendel
I have to agree as well Grendel. I think that many people do constantly look for that magic pill (art/style/system) that will give them the uppper edge on the competition. But if they look deep enough into what they have, they can usually find the answer (speaking in terms of Wing Chun).
Unfortunately, it isn’t always the Wing Chun practitioners fault, depending on what level they are. Maybe, thay haven’t traveled that far in their Wing Chun training yet, and just don’t see the answers to their questions. Or in some cases, just poor instruction.
I believe Wing Chun has the answers to any question, though, not always so obvious. And I have never felt that I needed to add other styles to this system.