http://www.subfighter.tv/vid/highlights/fight/Royce%20Gracie%20vs%20Kung%20Fu.wmv
[SIZE=4]Troll alert…Troll alert!..[/SIZE] :rolleyes:
Good point. They are good in ground and using both the back of knee and elbow to lock and choke. Thier expertise.
Thier first set up seems to be if they can grap you to scatering your gravity. Then you wont be able to hit them hard. It doesnt take much to make one lost gravity. Thus that is smart.
Second, ofcause they are good in ground and once one is in ground there are a difficulty of generating power because without training one is not use to.
It seems that there is a rule of no face and neck hitting?
But the crapper is allow to do neck lock? This is another advantage.
General martial art practitioner psycology has no intent to sufforcate or knock out others, but just to hit to hope other will go away or stop.
But, the Grapper is determine INTENT to sufforcate other without caring of the risk of serious damage can be done to the oponent. They will not stop.
The Choke technics use are so called Heavy hand in Chinese MA. In the old time, if this type of hand is not allowed to use in friendly match. Because there is a risk of damaging the opponent big time. In the old time, once you use this tech. you are no longer friend.
Now, if you don’t have an INTENT of no pull back to damage him. as in the video, they talks about they determine to take him to the ground. Don’t play.
you lost already because you don’t INTENT to damage him and you expecting the opponent to stop after taking some not that hard punch and you are not going to hit hard and aim him where you will be able to drop him. and face it how many time has you being train to aim and strike with full force to a certain target? But they are train to go for real once they get you. The habit of you stop after deriver an attack trying to be reserve is going to work against you.
One needs Chum Kiu, Biu Jee set with Kneeling horse to take care of these. … But then well I better stop here before getting too bloody.. Don’t want to create bad karma.
Well, better not compete and not play. No point. IMHO.
Phenix mentioned something interesting. A Bil Jee set with the kneeling horse. My last teacher taught me this in Bij Jee but I have not seen any others with it in their 3rd form. I have heard that in his early days William Cheung taught a kneeling horse in his TWC Bil Jee. How many others have been taught the kneeling horse either included in their forms or as a loose hands technique?
Hunt1,
I mention about something here because I believe and love WCK and it is a good art.
But then another part of me feeling very uncomfortable because it is always easy to kill and damage then to heal. Thus, it is no good to playing with those heavy hand and people intent to hurt.
I think may be the country should passed a law that some choking technics must not be used while playing to protect the innocent who doesn’t know what trouble can get into. Similar to if one poke others eyes it is an act of intetional violant.
IMHO, MA is different then trying intentionally capture or hurt others with all cost and the Art of Self-defence is not for sport.
Look at the fight between Mohamad ALI and the Japanese Wrestle decades ago. The ALi cannot effort to go down to mat. And the Wrestle cannot afford to take a punch on while standing up.
Thus, if we want to really go no hold back. it is always 50/50. And I think that is not neccesary. what to prove? what to brag about? Human is only mortal. And do we want to see some one get kill ?
Sad right?
do u guys think its necessary to train in grappling in order to deal with a grappler?
Originally posted by IRONMONK
do u guys think its necessary to train in grappling in order to deal with a grappler?
Nope.
Just ask yourself a question.
Do you determine to blown him out with whatever heavy hand when a grappler move in and determine to take you down? If you give him a chance then it doesnt matter if you have a pistol in your hand.
it is about a determination of damaging. Not a about technic.
And, I urge we don’t have to resolve to the determination for damgaing. To win by having determination of damaging will not go far.
He who damage will be damage. That is karma. it is only a matter of time the consequence will catching one up.
Mo Duk has to be brought in here. Martial art is not about winning with all cost.
Just don’t want to see people get hurt. Rememeber, KWan Kung or the General Kwan die disregard of how advance his fighting skill. They just trap him. Read the Three Kingdom. No one and no art is invincible. and we don’t have to prove what is a fact with precious life.
Just some thought.
Originally posted by IRONMONK
do u guys think its necessary to train in grappling in order to deal with a grappler?
Remember: The best grappler will always win! So,you would have to train more grappling than the grappler himself so,you would become the grappler! :eek: 
Just browse the archives for thousands of going around threads on the subject.
IRONMONK:
Against a HIGH QUALITY grappler I think it is important to skilled in three general areas:
-
Striking and kicking…as in…say…Wing Chun Kung Fu.
-
Counter grappling…as in striking, kicking, kneeing, elbowing and throwing the grappler who is trying to grab you and take you down.
-
Grappling…as in using grappling moves yourself if the situation warrants it.
hunt1 wrote:
>>I have heard that in his early days William Cheung taught a kneeling horse in his TWC Bil Jee.<<
Yes, you are correct. It’s called a gwai mah. It’s not normally in the biu jee form now but some of us still practice it.
IMHO,
The GRapper are great. They know thier art well. And ofcause if they can force one to fight their way that is their success.
As for us? the questions are
Do we really master the uncondition short range energy issuing? Can we nail them with our expertise ----- short range energy issuing? We are not suppose to easily got trap down isn’t it true?
Beside those determination… we need to examine ourself. Have we lost our strength? That wingchun characteristics…That uncondition shock Jing that you touch me you bounce…
If we look into the way how they grap but lost our own strenght then we have to admit.
The art of WingChunKuen has been lost. we cannot reproduce the power our ancestors had.
one of the reason I constantly argue about the source of SLT. it is not about history and lineage or who is the oldest. But it is about the reproduction of the Jing. I don’t believe the shao lin or Hung gar type of Jing is the Jing Leong Jan or Yik Kam or Wong Wah Poh used. If we cann’t reproduce their kind of Jing. we are in big trouble. we have machine gun without neuclear core bullet.
I wish WCners work with each other to bring this Jing back.
Just some crazy thought from a crazy man.
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]
I wish WCners work with each other to bring this Jing back.
[/B]
It is a very individual thing.
Just some crazy thought from a crazy man.
I have seen or heard worse here!..
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]IMHO,
The GRapper are great. They know thier art well. And ofcause if they can force one to fight their way that is their success. [/B]
You said it!..We only have to do the same!
“They know their art well”
What should we do to really know our art well?..
Originally posted by old jong
[B]
You said it!..We only have to do the same!
“They know their art well”
What should we do to really know our art well?.. [/B]
Yup.
You can do a lop da…tan da… slap thier face and making movie to show the world how helpless they are while standing up. Also showing them you wont use the xxxx strike to end the fight in the first counter. Just do the same as the way they do thier movie.
But you know, when people looking for fame, money,.and showing off. they really don’t like what they are doing disregard how good they are. Thus, they want some “value” from others to keep what they doing alive. When they cannot “deliver” what the others’ growing requirement. then they will fall apart.
for people who like thier art they just practice it and getting better and better.
Originally posted by old jong
It is a very individual thing.
[/B]
IMHO, it is not very individual thing. Whether we know or we dont.
We can deliver or we can’t. Everyone can learn from everyone.
We can learn from the Graper also.
Hello,
A superb conversation!
Do we really master the uncondition short range energy issuing? Can we nail them with our expertise ----- short range energy issuing? We are not suppose to easily got trap down isn’t it true?
Beside those determination… we need to examine ourself. Have we lost our strength? That wingchun characteristics…That uncondition shock Jing that you touch me you bounce…
Where has the soft/short/epxlosive power issue gone? In all honesty I think the power used now a days is more related to Hard power than soft shock fa jing. Can our bodies produce this soft shock power from zero contact distance in all directions? It is not what we may think. It takes a lot of hard hard work and focus on the extreme relaxations of the muscles, skin and breath while shrinking/refining our path of force to even begin to feel the power starting to cultivate. I also believe the larger frame we use the more shock force we lack! Old WC was very compact. The way the energy could travel thru the body was in small vibrations versus a bigger wave. Could it be the larger frame combined with the harder methods is creating this lack of soft shock jing or lack or info.?
But it is about the reproduction of the Jing. I don’t believe the shao lin or Hung gar type of Jing is the Jing Leong Jan or Yik Kam or Wong Wah Poh used. If we cann’t reproduce their kind of Jing. we are in big trouble. we have machine gun without neuclear core bullet.
Totally agree. When Leung Jan formulated the Koo Lo/Pin Sun WC systems progression he taught us not just skills but more importantly Ging patterns of body usage. So, you not only develop the fighting skill but cultivate the whole body power (which cannot come from a dead locked down body) in all directions! Forward, backward, up, down, left & right! Wouldn’t one of the purposes of YJKYM being perfectly upright and centered be so that we can produce whole body soft shock force in all direction?
The art of WingChunKuen has been lost. we cannot reproduce the power our ancestors had.
Sad but true. I dont think the WC that is being preserved now a days is nothing but the outside external link punch/kick shell of the WC of old! It works but its just not the same and how soft is our WC?
Regards,
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]
IMHO, it is not very individual thing. Whether we know or we dont.
We can deliver or we can’t. Everyone can learn from everyone.
We can learn from the Graper also. [/B]
I agree it should not be an individual thing .But it is for most in Wing Chun. I agree also that there is a lot to be learned as far as the proper “jing” is concerned but very few teach it as a practical thing. It could be made easier or simpler at least for the sake of the art.
How many are studying with Sifu’s who keep things from their students?..Many Sifu’s don’t want their students to perhaps get as good or better then themselves!..
Red Junk , roger,
we got a problem…
Copy!..
Originally posted by old jong
[B]
I agree it should not be an individual thing .But it is for most in Wing Chun. I agree also that there is a lot to be learned as far as the proper “jing” is concerned but very few teach it as a practical thing. It could be made easier or simpler at least for the sake of the art.
How many are studying with Sifu’s who keep things from their students?..Many Sifu’s don’t want their students to perhaps get as good or better then themselves!.. [/B]
Honestly, even if I have the it. I am affraid to use it for real.
Because I don’t know how to cure if I destroy. It might take years to learn to control it so that one can manual it without too destructive? Thus, there is lots of work need to be work on.
Just think out loud.