Am I so wrong??

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hi,

Compared to some of the people on this forum I am pretty inexperienced (about year and a half of wing chun, followed by a year and a half of a style that mixed TCMA, but turned out to be not that good, and now finally found an excellent WC school and am back at it with more determination than ever!).

However, this is what I wanted to put forward:

I am fairly young (22) but I have seen first hand about 5/6 real fights,(usually walking back from clubs late on sat night) and watched countless clips that get posted here.

And here is my observation: there seems to be so much talk on this forum about sparring, sparring and more sparring, as the most realistic thing you can get aside real street fights.

But, from every fight I have seen (granted not many, but a few) none have even slightly resembled a full contact sparing bout. (I.e. squaring off, then trading blows with skill, timing etc) from what I have seen they appear to be a fairly explosive mess, full intensity, hands every where and all over fairly quick (either people are pulled apart, or someone’s girlfriend intervenes, you know the score).

Now it seems to me that Wing chun is just perfect in these situations. Teaching you to ‘explode’ faster with more power and much more skill hence getting the inside line and causing damage more effectively.

I may be completely wrong, but it’s something that I have been thinking about more and more recently and I wanted to put it up here.

Full contact sparring surely is a good way of training, but from my little experience real fights, these ‘real’ encounters do not look anything like it. It seems to be that those who train full contact sparring all the time in their wing chun training are preparing more to fight other skilled sport type fighters (Thai boxers etc) or underground bare knuckle fighting ( this is the only place where I have seen real fighting that resembles anything like sparring).

Am I wrong? For it would seem to me that doing realistic drills (i.e. ‘redman’ type drills were a scene is set up, and a fully padded guy just jumps you out of the blue) should be just as effective (if not a little more?) than spending many hours hard sparring, for increasing your ability to fight on the street?

Just wanted to know your thoughts on this… I may be very wrong… however I am more than willing to learn…

Cheers

W

2

The trouble is that you are thinking of WCK (your training) as preparing you for a certain sort of situation, like some guy ambushing you or what you may believe a “streetfight” entails, rather than seeing the objective of your training being to increase your overall performance level, e.g., your ability to fight (regardless of the situation). The better your overall performance level, the better you will be able to adapt to whatever the situation. If someone can fight well, they can fight well anywhere. If they can’t fight well, they can’t fight well anywhere.

3

William - Very good point.

A lot of times when training, my partners and I will trade acting as the “bad guy” in a situation. We approach it like a confrontation, except we have gear on. Even to the point of talking smack, circling around, waving our hands, acting tough, maybe having a couple guys there. Definitely alert, but not in full Wing Chun guard. Hands are ready, feet are ready to move, but at the same time trying to not look like a fighter in a stance.

The “bad guy” will typically start with an aggressive move, whether it be an actual attack or just an aggressive feint…this is where some good acting comes into play. This movement/flinch/action triggers the “good guy” to attack/defend as needed.

Sometimes we play with just wild hooks. Sometimes we’ll just do straight crosses. Sometimes we’ll mix it up or focus more on the “good guy” bridging the gap. Sometimes we’ll have 1 “bad guy” and 2 “good guys” so you don’t know who’s going to be attacked (or which good guy will step in first). After initiation, we try to be realistic at whatever intensity we agreed upon. By limiting the attacks, you can focus on improving your defenses against it. Obviously, the goal is to get to total improv, but nothing wrong with breaking things down every once in a while. I like this method as opposed to the sport oriented squaring off.

I do think the squaring off method has some merit also. Dealing with a trained oppenent in a squared off position forces you to look for better opportunities/ openings. Just have to recognize that this isn’t as close to “realistic” as people might say. You’ve witnessed this yourself.

Just offering another tool. Take it however you want. Not saying its the only way. Mixing up your training can only help as long as you keep the end goal clear and in mind.

Eric

4

you have got it spot on :cool:

and to all you grapplers out there get real you are not going to last two seconds against multiple oppenents.learn how to escape from the ground and get up as fast as possible in traning if you can’t get up and someone has you pinned or whatever, just give them a bite on the ear (a light one :rolleyes: ) just to let them know you could have ripped their ear off and make them think twice about the techniques they use for street fighting.

nice post william keep it real.

5

Sparring is a training tool not the end all to learning WC. If all you do is spar then you will miss the point of why sparring exist in WC. Just like chi sao. If all you do is chi sao then youve missed the point of why it is in WC. Furthermore, those who chi sao fight have completely missed the point of WC!

6

yeah thats it i don’t do wing chun but i am going to study it as soon as i can find a decent school.

at the moment i do what i call combat kickboxing very self defence orintated i have done alot of sparring but always felt as if something was missing and when i got mugged i knew what it was the mental stuff and the adrenal dump you get in the street basically i froze and it changed my life i started getting scared to leave the house it was that bad but with the support of my family i am better now . ever since then i have been recreating the scenario with friends and many other types of situations and i feel alot more street efficent we all get padded up and go at it obviously you can’t recreate a proper full on adrenal dump but we try to get as close as possible and hopefully my freezing days are over.

7

oh yeah i was mugged at knifepoint i found it a bit hard to find my bottle and to get my punches off with a sharp implement in my face somthing i had never even thought about training to deal with before.

8

and to all you grapplers out there get real you are not going to last two seconds against multiple oppenents.learn how to escape from the ground and get up as fast as possible in traning

Gee, thanks for pointing that out, no one ever said that to me before yawn

if you can’t get up and someone has you pinned or whatever, just give them a bite on the ear (a light one ) just to let them know you could have ripped their ear off and make them think twice about the techniques they use for street fighting.

Trouble is, if they’re on top, they can bite you back, stick their thumbs in your eyes, knock those supposedly fight ending sharp teeth of yours down your throat or break your jaw with their elbow, which they are in a far better position than you to do damage while they have you pinned.

Grappling schools which are not pure sport regularly train with both participants putting their hands on the guy’s face, simulating bites, etc. It’s not that difficult to learn to protect your face, groin and other vital areas when grappling - or groundfighting, which are actually two different things, a distinction which appears to have escaped you.

Everyone knows that “only an idot would go to the ground in a streetfight” - the trouble is, some “idiots” still win the occasional fight and some smart guys still end up in the ICU. You have to be ready for all eventualities.

somthing i had never even thought about training to deal with before.

Then learn a little about modern knife fighting, not difficult if you are a little resourceful, and for that matter modern self defense. Don’t fight over a wallet, don’t try to fight an armed attacker if you can run.

9

n01 wrote:

and to all you grapplers out there get real you are not going to last two seconds against multiple oppenents.

**I always find these sorts of statements amusing, including the erroneous assumptions that it’s based on – for example, that “strikers” can defeat competant multiple attackers.

learn how to escape from the ground and get up as fast as possible in traning

**And who do you think will have the skills to do that? Grapplers.

if you can’t get up and someone has you pinned or whatever, just give them a bite on the ear (a light one ) just to let them know you could have ripped their ear off and make them think twice about the techniques they use for street fighting.

**Yeah, that will do it! LOL!

**About “foul tactics” like biting, gouging, etc. – I’ve found that a lot of “junk” works, and works fairly well, against un-trained, poorly-skilled fighters. When you hear stories about biting or gouging in streetfights, it’s almost always between two scrubs. But what works against scrubs and what works against better skilled people is often night and day; it takes the experience of fighting with better skilled people (and scrubs) to see that. That’s why I don’t find “I’ve used such-and-such in a streetfight sucessfully” a compelling argument. It’s easy to beat crap with crap. But it’s a different story with trained people.

**For one thing, even if you are able to pull this stuff off, good fighters develop the ability to absorb a lot of punishment and/or pain and keep going (this comes from fighting as part of one’s training). Forrest Griffin (of UFC fame), for example, won a fight even after breaking his arm. Do you think a bite on the arm or the ear would stop him or make him release his arm-bar or mount? (This may also have to do with the adrenaline effects of a fight where pain tolerance is greatly enhanced, something else to consider in the biting, pinching, gouging debate).

**And, of course, this assumes you are able to pull-off the “junk” in the first place. Like any competitive activity, scrubs fall for all kinds of things but experts don’t. Just like expert stand-up fighters don’t expose their chins (or their groins) as targets, expert groundfighters don’t expose themselves either. IME, in facing well-skilled folks, it takes skill to get them to expose anything, and if you have that level of skill, then you don’t need the “junk.”

**But, of course, if it makes you feel better to belueve that nonsense, don’t let me stir you from your fantasy.

10

[QUOTE=william]Hi,

"…from every fight I have seen (granted not many, but a few) none have even slightly resembled a full contact sparing bout. (ie. squaring off, then trading blows with skill, timing etc) from what I have seen they appear to be a fairly explosive mess, full intensity, hands every where and all over fairly quick (either people are pulled apart, or someone’s girlfriend intervenes, you know the score).

Now it seems to me that Wing chun is just perfect in these situations. Teaching you to ‘explode’ faster with more power and much more skill hence getting the inside line and causing damage more effectively…

Full contact sparring surely is a good way of training, but from my little experience real fights, these ‘real’ encounters do not look anything like it. It seems to be that those who train full contact sparring all the time in their wing chun training are preparing more to fight other skilled sport type fighters (Thai boxers etc) or underground bare knuckle fighting ( this is the only place where I have seen real fighting that resembles anything like sparring).

Am I wrong? For it would seem to me that doing realistic drills (i.e. ‘redman’ type drills were a scene is set up, and a fully padded guy just jumps you out of the blue) should be just as effective (if not a little more?) than spending many hours hard sparring, for increasing your ability to fight on the street?

Just wanted to know your thoughts on this…"

EXCELLENT POST, William…and I believe that being “attacked” as part of one’s training, wherein it is a spontaneous situation (and not one where your hands are up and you’re ready for the encounter)…is very important. Someone just grabs and pushes (or pulls) with one hand while flailing away with the other…or you’re grabbed from behind in a bear hug or a full nelson…or someone comes from your side and puts you in a headlock meant to take you right to the ground…or a knife attack…or someone grabs your neck unexpectedly and starts throwing knees into your midsection, or multiple opponents, etc…

to name just a few scenarios…

and to do it in the park, or on the sidewalk, or in a room with furniture all around…

these things need to be trained on a regular basis, imo.

You’re right about this. But not instead of actual sparring - in addition to it; because there’s always the chance that your next streetfight WILL be against someone with martial art training - and you saw the situation developing before being taken by surprise.

11

Thanks for the replies,

I guess there are those who train to become the best fighter ever (I.e. to not only defend themselves against street encounters, but also to have a fair chance against fully trained boxers and BJJ ers) and to those people I take my hat off, and I think to achieve ability at that level requires such dedication to training and disipline, for the people that reach it, much respect is deserved.

However, one would hope, that random street attacks would not come from trained MA’s, Boxers etc. And if it does their training has gone wrong somewhere. I am not saying that it will never happen, just that (I think) in my environment I am much more likely to be attacked by a slightly intoxicated D**k with a chip on his sholder who for some reason thinks I might be an easy target. And that is why I train, so even if I do get a beating, it will not happen easily, and he is likely to experience a shock ( and at least a fair deal of pain). And for that eventuality I think WC is ideal. plus I really really enjoy the training, the people I train with and my instructor and it is a positive aspect of my life.

As to BJJ effectiveness on the street, I know very little, but I read something that said be very careful as if grappling is you main way of fighting i.e. if you were attacked you would take them to the floor, as people do not usually go out on their own and if someone’s mate is takeing a beating from someone on the floor, even if they started it, it will not be long before you have a lenth of wood, bar stool, snooker cue, iron bar… rapped around your head.

I do think ground fighting is important, and I am lucky enough to have found a WC school where the instructers son is a BJJ Teacher, so my instructer will incorporate basic grappling skills with the WC training.

Anyhow best go

W

12

of course stand up fighting is a lot superior in the streets against multiples obviously you have never been attacked by a group and don’t train for it because your grappling bollocks would go straight out of the window :rolleyes: . biting someones ear off is a fight finisher. you make it out that the average person can’t fight i find this ridicoulous but thats okay you just keep training for your one on ones on your nice comfy mats.

13

plus if you read what i posted i said grappling doesn’t work against multiple oppenents :confused: you disagree with this wow! one against one it is king against two people your dead meat.

14

do you think any of you will have a chance against a proffessional mixed martial artist lol they would tear the majority of peoples heads off i don’t care how much training you do if you don’t do it full time they will kill you.

15

Again, you are missing the “big picture” – you can look at our fighting abilities as coming in two large parts, your core fighting skills (your physical performance level: what you can actually physically accomplish generally in fighting) and tactics (various ways of using those root skills). If you don’t have the core skills, you won’t be able to fight well regardless of the situation. Developing this aspect is critical. And as I said above, to develop significiant fighting skills, you need to train like a fighter. No one develops significant fighting skills without fighting as part of their training.

On the other hand, tactics, the various ways of using those root skills, is what permits us to successfully deal with different situations – as we can’t get away with “one strategy for all occasions”. How you attempt to deal with two people will, of course, be different than how you will attempt to deal with one; you’ll use different tactics but the same root skills. The tactics you’ll use when you fight in a ring or challenge fight are different that those you may use to fight if being mugged, but both involve using the same root fighting skills. Thus, if you can’t fight, if you don’t have the root skills, it doesn’t matter what the situation or veue – you’ll still suck. If you have a ppor level of fighting skill, then the only chance you have is if your opponent is a complete scrub. Then you may win, not because you are so good, but because your opposition is so lame.

BTW, your view of “professioal MMAists” is obviously purely theoretical. I’ve trained with, and along side of, several pro MMAists, and they don’t train “full-time”. Most pro MMAists (since they don’t make much money fighting, but do it more for fun) work for a living. For example, one pro fighters works as a roofer, another as a security consultant/body-guard in the entertainment industry. They increase their training time when getting ready for a specific fight, but the rest of the time, they don’t train more that I do. Of course, world-class athletes (the Royce’s of this world) train like any other world-class athletes, and I would agree with you that you won’t beat one unless you train like one. But that’s in anything and besides the point. That point is if you want to develop fighting skill, you need to train like a fighter. You don’t need to train like a world-class fighter unless you want to be a world-class fighter.

16

your’e preaching to a preacher who said i don’t train like a fighter. i spar,strength train, anerobic conditoning, punch focus mitts, hit the bag, scenario training the works yeah my training partners ain’t the best in the world and neither am i. i am just saying for me roleplaying is a very important aspect of what i do learning to be sneaky going into a small stance in a way the person you are going to attack won’t notice and going pre-emptive.

i ain’t knocking grappling saying it is rubbish just some peoples view that it works against multiple oppenents. and some peoples view that untrained people can’t fight is laughable.

17

Wilson, n01:

You two guys have got it right…and the point about grappling on the streets against multiple opponents being less effective than standup striking/kicking is correct (and I say that as a wing chun guy who is also very big on grappling and crosstraining).

I like the methods the guys in your school (Wilson) use to work the spontaneous street scenarios - that’s smart training.

18

Would grappling be my first choice in a multiple opponent situation? No.

But sometimes, you don’t have a choice.

There are four things my grappling experience enables me to do:

  1. Manipulate somebody’s balance and thus position (I can remove them from between me and the exit route, or put them between me and the other attackers.)

  2. Remain standing longer.

  3. Protect myself if I find myself on the ground.

  4. Get up quickly, safely, and efficiently.

What n01 is really saying is that going to the ground is not the best option in a streetfight with multiple opponents. And that is true. But making some sort of blanket statement like “u grapp13rz w0uld b3 PWN3D” in a streetfight carries with it thet implicit assumption that “something else” would not.

The reality is much messier.

To put it more bluntly, my grappling skills help me to try and dictate or alter the range of the fight to one that is more favorable to me getting away alive. And this will be crucial to my survival.

Even more bluntly, I can escape from a 320 lbs man who is a good blue belt. I can escape from a 240 lbs ex Judoka with a brown belt in BJJ. Can you? You might. But I can. And if I want to get up, that’s kind of important. A 320 lbs guy who has no skill will be a cinch by comparison. I can tell you from experience that if you don’t know what you are doing (we were all new once) getting away from somebody that big is no easy feat, even if NEITHER of you have a clue.

19

i can’t argue with that you are right how much do you weigh?

20

Because I am in a weight class sport, it fluctuates between 180 and 200.

Right now I am about 195. I walk around between 190 and 200, mostly.