Are you trying to tell me that The whole time Wing chun, or any other art for that matter was being created, no one figured out that the so called weakness of these arts was to just tackle them? So from what I am to understand, wrestling/grappling was a purely western idea and the chinese didn’t bother with wrestling on the ground for centuries before they encountered the west?
Most people need to learn to grapple because their wing chun skill is not that high and they have not taken the time to understand what it is they are doing. What if their wing chun skill was higher?
Re: Grappling in china and Wing Chun Development
Originally posted by red5angel
What if their wing chun skill was higher? [/B]
Then i wouldn’t need to grapple.
What did everyone forget about Shuai Chiao
Here’s a link for some,
http://mastermatt.com/shuaichiao.html
I believe the question was facetious.
The problem wasn’t in the past, where people still fought and tested their skills, and tried out against long fist, short fist, wrestling, and other types. The problem is now when people hear about ancestors doing it in the past and figure they can magically do it themselves, now.
It’s not hard to make things very difficult for grapplers (lots of MAA fighters have figured out how: Cro Cop, Liddel, etc.), like anything else, you have to put the work in.
(As an aside, if you’re interested in self-defense, I would also invest an hour or two learning the sprawl, bridge, and shrimp, since the ratio is so little time/so much reward its worthwhile to keep in your back pocket just until your awesome WCK skill makes you untouchable even to Olympic level grapplers 
RR
Now I think he’s being facetious! It’s becoming epidemic!
RR - agreed, you have to put the time in. Thats the only hole I see in wing chun, not having enough time in and diligent practice to understand that those percieved holes really aren’t there. You could go the route of trying to specialize for every eventuality or you can just study your art to its very core, avoids being too spread out.
Mostly its just the lack of modern knowledge that makes us think there are holes, that and the lack of dedication to seek out those answers within our art. I say if it appears to be lost where or with what you are training maybe you should begin to study in detail what its you are doing and either figure out what it is missing or look for something more complete that doesnt recquire you spread yourself thin. I would rather spend the time learning wing chun and getting that much better at it then going the route of the buffet martial arts…
Are you trying to tell me that The whole time wrestling, or any other art for that matter was being created, no one figured out that the so called weakness of these arts was to just hit them? So from what I am to understand, hitting/kicking was a purely eastern idea and the west didn’t bother with punching and kicking for centuries before they encountered the east?
Most people need to learn to punch and kick because their grappling skill is not that high and they have not taken the time to understand what it is they are doing. What if their grappling skill was higher?
RR - agreed, you have to put the time in. Thats the only hole I see in grappling, not having enough time in and diligent practice to understand that those percieved holes really aren’t there. You could go the route of trying to specialize for every eventuality or you can just study your art to its very core, avoids being too spread out.
Mostly its just the lack of modern knowledge that makes us think there are holes, that and the lack of dedication to seek out those answers within our art. I say if it appears to be lost where or with what you are training maybe you should begin to study in detail what its you are doing and either figure out what it is missing or look for something more complete that doesnt recquire you spread yourself thin. I would rather spend the time learning grappling and getting that much better at it.
LOL! @ MP, dont get me wrong Merry, I am not knocking grappling by any means! My problem is with people who feel they have to fill holes that just arent there in wingchun.
I don’t think it does any harm to ask the question though–and plenty of people explore other arts, and incorporate those ideas into their WC framework, right? I mean, your lineage has some Tai Chi ideas in it, right? So does it hurt to say, study judo and figure out where the things you learned fit into your WC frame work? My wrestling and boxing have merged nicely (sprawl and right hook to the noggin works wonders…)And no offense, but I gather that WC groundfights about as much as BJJ kicks and punches. I don’t think you need to be an expert of course, but decent would be nice… I know, I know… WC principles can be used on the ground…
MP, I see where you are coming from, and first I should say no, our lineage does not have any Taichi ideas in it. I just had to make that clear, some people get ultra sensitive on that subject.
If you just want to go out and collect techniques and try to make them work for you thats fine by me. If you want to learn a few different arts out of interest or whatever other reason, that too is fine by me. I wont lecture you about the principles working on the ground but the answers are in there. The only problem I have is when people say they are using it to fill gaps. The only gaps ar ein knowledge, whether it is yours or the place you learn at. Understand what I am trying to say?
and first I should say no, our lineage does not have any Taichi ideas in it.
Do you mean not in regards to fighting? I’m confused here. Seems there are a few ideas are there in the beginning exercises at least. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
kung fu cowboy. wing chun the way we do it has no tai chi in it(or any other system), in regards to fighting. Like how many people stretch before doing wing chun to warm up, in our class we do some basic tai chi excersizes just to warm up. but when we start wing chun, it is just wing chun.
Without going into anymore detail then this most chinese martial arts have some common themes and share some common ideas and principles. We do not mix Taichi with wingchun.
ALINY–That’s what I was saying. It’s not a part of the wing chun, but it’s just seen in the opening exercises. Not in the fighting.
Well, Wing Chun is only 300 years old, so it never had a great legacy like some styles of Kung Fu. Also, there is no recording of the use of this system. China has Chin Na which is wrestling. Maybe Wing Chun was designed to be used in conjunction with other styles. Grappling is not a good technique for women to use. Wing Chun is a womans method of fighting designed for them, so perhaps that is why it has little graplling. For a woman, striking and moving is always the best option.
red5angel with an original thread topic - NOT.
Wing Chun actually has grappling moves in the forms. I guess you just have to put the time in to see them.
Studying a grappling art actually helps to see the grappling applications of WC more easily. In theory you could do this studying WC alone, but few have to any realistic degree.
Studying WC or another standup art can improve your understanding of grappling techniques as well.
MP is correct.
Ultimate Fighter
China has Chin Na which is wrestling. Maybe Wing Chun was designed to be used in conjunction with other styles.
Chin na is not a style or even a technique. It is the accumulated knowledge of locking & breaking joints, sealing blood flow and pressing the body cavites in order to produce damage. As was pointed out earlier in the thread Swai Jo (sp) is more “comparable” to wrestleing, however they are not identical.
Wing Chun, as any good system of fighting has the elements of
Da - or stiking
Gerk- or kicking
Swai (sp) - or throwing
Chin Na - or joint locking
and
Dai Tong - or ground fighting
Grappling is not a good technique for women to use.
I hear nearly every grappler on this board say how BJJ and other styles of grappling give the smaller and weaker an advantage by taking the fight to the ground? ever heard of Fukien Ground Boxing?
Quoting Sifu David Ross (lkfmdc) on the Underground Forum (from Stickgrappler’s MA archives) :
QUOTE:
In the 1950’s, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak!
Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you’ve ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you’d understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters.
Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened.
UNQUOTE
Maybe Chang never ran into a WC guy (or maybe they all ran away from him). But it would appear that Chinese grappling was alive, well and extremely effective, way before Rorion and Royce came to America.
Maybe what r5a says is true. Or maybe a lot of WC guys stayed away from wrestlers and insulted them and their from a safe distance, like it would seem many do now. And no doubt, then as now, the reverse is also true.