Anyone practice any type of Wing Chun anti-grappling?
Let’s talk techniques.
What is a good WC technique for stopping a takedown like a double-leg?
What is a method for maintaining close-hand range and keeping your opponent for gettng the clinch?
What do you do to back away from the clinching range if he gets it and get back into short-hand range?
<img src = “http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif”>
We do.
We have regular classes in WC ground fighting, and have a “clinch drill” where we learn/practice defeating someone “clinching” us.
For paticular tech please see my Sifu’s “Anti-Grapler Tapes”
http://www.authentickungfu.com/wctapes/index.html
go to the bottom of the page.
some quotes from the series :
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> This is not a magic bullet. If you do not know chi sau and chi gerk, if you do not have good ma kung and the ability to root and generate power from the ground, then these techs will be of little use to you. [/quote]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> offten the first thing someone will do on the street is grab you and hit you.[/quote]
Counter-grappling
>>>Anyone practice any type of Wing Chun anti-grappling?<<<
I do…a lot.
Things have gotten insanely busy here today, so I’ll post on the three points you asked about later tonight after I’m done working my way through my assassination list…er, I mean “client contact list”. 
One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
– Sun-Tzu
Anti Grappling for Strikers
Well, I am currently a JKD man, using Jujitsu as my secondary. I do this now as a convert, since I started out as a Jujitsu man.
To put it simply, there is no way to repel a grappler, unless you know grappling to some extent yourself. I say this in general of course – it is possible to luck out and land that perfect blow, but the mixed martial arts competitions have shown this to be a minority occurence – hardly reliable.
I will cite the Gracies for a moment: the only striking fighters that have been worth thier salt against them have been those who have also trained in grappling to a great extent. They were not grapplers per se, but they knew the feel of it, the look of it, and the tactics of it. Such people, even though not grapplers, could still easily put out your average TKD guy with a grappling takedown adn finish. They were not Gracie caliber grapplers, but it gave them the ability to stay on their feet (longer than otherwise, anyway).
I am not espousing that you train with some grappling techniques – I’ll let the tale of the tape do that. Check out the history on it from some of the full contact events – those with legit technical fighters, and not the back room brawlers.
Martialdoulos,
Are you saying, that I must be fairly familiar with a certain range of combat to defeat someone who utilizes it?
Say I don’t like to kick. I have short muscular legs and I like to strike and grapple. Say I want to fight a kicker who is very, very good. Must I study kicking to beat him?
Now say I am a grappler who wants to beat a good boxer, but I don’t have any boxing experience. Must I study boxing to beat him?
<img src = “http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif”>
No, but your chances are greatly improved if you study your opponent’s game. You are more likely to know his movements and are less likely to be caught by unfamiliar tactics. It helps a lot if you know your opponent’s mettods…
JiuKaiMan,
You brought up a very interesting question. Do I have to study a certain stlye just to be able to handle someone who studies that style? Personally, I don’t think so. But at the same time I think I understand what martialdoulos is getting at. Martialdoulos, why do think that it is necessary to study a style in order to defeat someone that practices it?
Thanks.
Back to the original question - i can see it being VERY difficult to not break the wing chun rules when someone goes in for a takedown - ie going back wards, or bending over and ‘breaking’ your structure. Would be interesting to hear any responces.
Thanks
Edd
My anus is superiorâ„¢
martialdoulos
“To put it simply, there is no way to repel a grappler, unless you know grappling to some extent yourself.”
Sounds you have little or no grasp of Chi Sao.
tnwingtsun,
What does chi sao have to do with handling a grappler?
By what you are saying, are you going to plan to learn every single martial art in the world to be able to figure out what everybody tends to rely on in a fight?
If you really don’t know then you need to train to the point where you do,its there.
Defending the Double Leg
>>>What is a good WC technique for stopping a takedown like a double-leg?<<<
The first thing to understand is that a good takedown artist isn’t going to try and double leg you rushing from across the room - he’s going to set up the shoot with strikes or from the clinch. Once he feels like he’s got a direct path to your lower body he’ll quickly change levels and take the shot.
There is one of the first keys - taking control of the fight enough that he can’t change levels, or if he does he’s too far away for the shot to have much power and opening a gap you can fill with your hands.
Let’s say he’s done a good job of leading your hands forward, changed levels, and is in full shoot – what you don’t want to do is try and stop him with strikes. Why? Because landing a power hit (something hard enough to end the shot) on someone coming fast at your legs underneath your arms is an extremely high-percentage move (meaning it’s unlikely, but not impossible).
The reason I say this is because of the mechanics involved in the whole operation. You know that kinetic power is derived from the momentum created by accelerating an object of mass. Because a good shot comes from a complete full-body commitment, you’ll understand that your punch is trying to stop the shooter’s entire body mass. That’s why, when they find the path, most grapplers can cut right through counter-punching attempts when shooting.
That’s why I don’t wager on that one “perfect” punch that will drop someone coming in like that.
Here’s another thing – from my own personal observations I think that a lot of the power and effectiveness in a move like the double leg comes from a good portion of the victim’s own involuntary reactions to it. When someone shoots in on you like that there is often an involuntary reaction to stand up and move away from the attack. Because you are “flinching up and away” you are actually doing a great deal of the work on getting your back slammed onto the ground.
[One a side note: the reverse side of this, in a stand up “striking” environment, is seen when you are throwing blows at someone who hasn’t undergone serious conditioning training. A poorly conditioned fighter will involuntarily pull his head back and his shoulders up in response to a committed, powerful punch. This reaction aids the Wing Chun fighter who knows how to pressure forward with solid footwork and follow up his strikes (chain punching).]
This is where a wrestler’s sprawl comes in. They use that natural reaction to throw their hips backward, but instead of “lifting” they sink their weight into the shooter – using their commited body mass in a superior (“top”) position to smother the power of the shot, which of course works great.
The thing is, there is no “wrestler’s sprawl” in Wing Chun. So, what do you do? One answer is to go “sprawl shopping” at your local wrestling club to pick up the defense, or maybe look deeper into your Wing Chun for something that may work just as well…
OK, from a Wing Chun standpoint, you most definitely can’t move back and, for argument’s sake, you don’t have the option of sprawling.
Now, here’s the interactive portion of my post: stand in your neutral stance (Ding Ma) – pretending someone was standing at your bridge, changed levels, and is now in full shoot – then quickly and ballistically shift your hips and center of gravity to one leg (it doesn’t matter which leg if he’s coming in straight for a double leg, but it’s more effective if you’re good enough with your footwork to follow his body movement and shift so you’re facing whichever side he has decided to place his head).
Note: the shooter WILL grab your legs - there just ain’t no gettin’ around that - BUT, the hip shift will redirect the force of the shot and spin him a little bit (just like how a bullfighter twists out of the way of a charging bull).
Now of course, just shifting your hips over to one leg will nullify - to a certain degree - the immediate danger of the double leg, if he’s worth his salt in takedowns he’ll just change up to a single leg and dump you anyway.
Therefore, once you shift your hips, you immediately drop your weighted knee (almost like a rapid squatting motion) while simultaneously using a Pak Sau (also called Gum Sau in this instance, which means “Pinning Hand”) motion with your arm to push the shooter’s body weight toward the ground.
What you have just done is called Cho Jum Ma, or “Shifted Sinking Stance”.
BUT DON’T STOP THERE!
Once you’ve shifted, sunk, and propelled the shooter’s body to the ground you have to pressure forward with the weighted knee into the shooter’s body to keep him from dropping his hands to your ankles, sucking his knees up, and single-legging you down.
When you pressure your weighted knee forward into his body you will find yourself pinning the shooter to the ground with your knee. That’s the magic of them there 100/0 “one-legged” stances.
From there it’s time to administer a grevious and severe @ss whoopin’ on the offending shooter.
BTW, all the body mechanics for this move are found in Chum Kiu.
One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
– Sun-Tzu
Here’s something I pulled out of the archives
My Sigung in action:
<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=7572066&w=188&h=288>
You’ll instantly recognize that move from Chum Kiu. Now just imagine immediately sinking the weighted leg (keeping your back straight) while pressing down with the Pak Sau and you’ve got Cho Jum Ma w/ Gum Sau.
One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
– Sun-Tzu
Watchman,
I like that technique. Reading your posts on WC/VT/WT really interests me in the style. I just read your profile. I thought you were a cop. You do live in Utah, right?
I don’t get mad.
I get stabby.
tnwingtsun,
It’s there? What’s there? What is it specifically that is in chi sao that is going to enable you to defend against a grappler. You seem to know. So, I’m asking you to tell me. Isn’t that what this forum is about, sharing ideas?
Thanks.
Stranger,
No, I’m not a cop – I’ve just hung around enough of them that I’ve developed that distinctive “cop talk” (and I get mistaken for an off duty police officer when I’m wandering around in public sometimes – I think it’s the arrogant stride and constant scoul on my face ).
To answer your other question – I live in the southwestern tip of Utah about 90 minutes from Las Vegas, Nevada.
BTW,
I don’t know where in VA you’re located, but I have a kung fu brother that runs a school in Newport News.
If you’d like to drop by his school go ahead and email me and I’ll give you his contact info.
Watchman’s way sounds awesome and more Wing Chun than what I do but I don’t know if I have the ability to pull it off. I’m slow & stupid so I have to keep it simple. If a guy drops in for a single or double leg I sprawl. I keep my hips curled forward just like in Yeung Ma and try to sink my weight in hopes of flattening them. Sometimes I like to get them in a front headlock, lodge their head in my stomach, pull my arms upwards and with hips curled forward (like in YJKYM) I move towards them thus choking them out.
Against a wild tackle I like to control the head and use a shifting stance/footwork to use their momentum to throw them I also use a hand position similar to the “piercing hands” in Chum Kiu and as they rush I lean in to meet them but stop them by allowing them to collide with my fore arms which I place against the side of the neck and the shoulder from here you can knee or go into a crucifix.
“To the extreme!”
–Poochie
Wing Chun is about simplicity. To be honest, the simplest way that I have seen is to sprawl. This is a grappling move, but seems pretty efficient.
