[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279794]There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent’s action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.[/QUOTE]
Ok, got it.
If you priotize the strong shield and have no intention to react and change to the opponent, then grabbing hands together works best.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279794]I have tested it in
I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very “strong” guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.
There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent’s action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.
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It sounds like you are using a gimmick guard to get to a clinch. It should be effective if people try to punch their way into it. However, with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won’t have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints.
As a gimmick, it can be workable but leaves major holes for an effective approach.
If my opponent throws kick, I won’t drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent’s fake punch can expose his head, I’ll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent’s head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won’t be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don’t need any punching power for that.
To effectively block leg kicks you are also going to need mobility and counter balance with your arms, which you won’t have with them locked up together like that. I mean try a MT drill blocking inside and outside kicks with arms tied together. You can do it, but anyone good will take one look at that disadvantage you are piling on yourself and light you up like a Xmas tree.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1279896]with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won’t have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints. [/QUOTE]
The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a “wrestler” who doesn’t want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his “wrestling skill” against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.
When your opponent’s arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual “skill/ability level”. We can only discuss “strategy” here. We can’t compare individual’s “skill/ability level”. IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your “rhino guard” to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your “rhino guard” may have some combat value.
I had assumed the purpose of joining the hands in the rhino guard was to make the guard stronger and less likely to be knocked aside.
I’ve been taught similar concepts, though with important differences, by a 4th degree BJJ black belt with EXTENSIVE experience in kickboxing, Silat and other striking arts. IIRC the Gracie combatives include some very similar concepts.
He too, developed a strategy to allow a grappler to close with a puncher without minimum risk (which is not to say NO risk - there is no such option).
However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the “shell”, where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King’s “crazy monkey” defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy’s chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.
The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn’t want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.
It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.
The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.
Here’s an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg
If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B’s arms are shorter than A’s arms because A’s arms are straight but B’s arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A’s hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B’s head is exposed, the moment that A’s arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B’s head to be exposed, that’s what A is waiting for. Since B’s head punch will take longer path than A’s head wrap, that will be A’s advantage.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279901]If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B’s arms are shorter than A’s arms because A’s arms are straight but B’s arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A’s hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B’s head is exposed, the moment that A’s arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B’s head to be exposed, that’s what A is waiting for. Since B’s head punch will take longer path than A’s head wrap, that will be A’s advantage.
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But that’s not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.
Wouldn’t that guard be vulnerable to a “defanging the snake” strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?
[QUOTE=anerlich;1279902]But that’s not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.
Wouldn’t that guard be vulnerable to a “defanging the snake” strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?[/QUOTE]
I don’t have clip for that yet but I’ll make that clip when I have chance.
When a rhino charges in, he doesn’t have to wait for his opponent’s attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don’t even have to wait for your opponent’s opening. You can just open your opponent’s guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC “chain punches” strategy. The difference is when you use “chain punches”, you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don’t need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.
If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent’s head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can’t move back forever.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279903]I don’t have clip for that yet but I’ll make that clip when I have chance.
When a rhino charges in, he doesn’t have to wait for his opponent’s attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don’t even have to wait for your opponent’s opening. You can just open your opponent’s guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC “chain punches” strategy. The difference is when you use “chain punches”, you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don’t need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.
In thecontext of John’s video-
A good understanding and internalization of wing chun can allow to move in with closed man sao and wu sao hand position-if the timing is right-
allowing additional punches, chops or clinching imo without changing gears to non wing chun motions.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279897]The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a “wrestler” who doesn’t want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his “wrestling skill” against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.
[/QUOTE]
So in a self defense scenario unless you probe your opponent and know he doesn’t have wrestling skills, the rhino guard is ineffective?
First, what does this little adage have to do with the rhino guard? whether someone is afraid of a wrestler? So now rhino guard only works against non wrestlers who are not afraid of other wrestlers? Also the arm drag’s purpose is not moving both of your arms, it’s getting you to the waist. And last, I’m getting this mind picture of a dude sprawling on someone with both hands clasped together and face planting. It’s an awesome picture.
When your opponent’s arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual “skill/ability level”. We can only discuss “strategy” here. We can’t compare individual’s “skill/ability level”. IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your “rhino guard” to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your “rhino guard” may have some combat value.
Wow, that last sentence sounds like a fortune cookie 
[QUOTE=anerlich;1279900]However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the “shell”, where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King’s “crazy monkey” defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy’s chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.
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Yes, absolutely. This is the solid approach here that doesn’t give up mobility. MT shell.
The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn’t want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.
in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.
It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.
Agreed.
The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.
Here’s an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg
I would call those guys the rhino guard.
The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.
Here’s an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg
Interesting.
You’d call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it… what a fighter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D-sp8xbZv0
Also, heres a breakdown of it by a gent i subscribe to on youtube (good channel if you like boxing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a03y_kd_yWk
So i guess, responding to Johns “rhino guard”, there is a place for the unconventional but, personally, id like to see someone that actually uses it rather than on compliant students
in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.
Yeah, I think that’s right. The shell is only to stay protected until you can latch on with better controls and stop the ability for the other guy to punch.
In Joe Rogan’s recent interview with Rickson Gracie and Eddie Bravo, Eddie talks about how he based the rubber guard on old school vale tudo defence from guard, viz. overhook and neck tie. My BJJ instructor’s first line of guard defence nogi or MMA is overhook one arm, foot on the opposite hip, grab the free wrist with shin inside the arm. Lots of grappling options from there.
You’d call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it… what a fighter
You’re right. John Famechon, and particularly his trainer Ambrose Palmer, made good use of the cross defence as well.
I would call those guys the rhino guard.
They are big guys. The black belt in particular, Darko Zaric, is a good friend of mine and occasional instructor. Black Belt Open Australian Machado champ. They are both great technicians. The other guy, Tim, has a really nasty half guard game.
I see some parallels with John’s Rhino Guard and Tony Blauer’s Spear, if anyone remembers that. I know next to zero about Krav Maga but I’ve seen clips of KM guys using similar entries. In some ways all of this stuff appears to be variations on similar concepts.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1279903]I don’t have clip for that yet but I’ll make that clip when I have chance.
When a rhino charges in, he doesn’t have to wait for his opponent’s attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don’t even have to wait for your opponent’s opening. You can just open your opponent’s guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC “chain punches” strategy. The difference is when you use “chain punches”, you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don’t need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.
If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent’s head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can’t move back forever.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.
Before I can make my clip, Let me borrow this clip. The “rhino guard” arms moving path is the same as showing in this clip. You can see that his both arms are moving in 2 straight lines. May be both of his arms should move more closer to his opponent’s head instead.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1279939]This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------Shell-visor- not bad ideas at all—the rhino seems like a nice enough variation.
Not just Norton- Archie Moore also had his variation- but Marciano ploughed through it.
Tyson’s original peekaboo also had a relaxed closed triangle. After D’Amato died, Tyson’s peekaboo
opened up and Buster Douglas could and did get through both with jab and uppercut.
