Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel… the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.
The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don’t.
As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.
I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn’t fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It’s nice to work the fence or ground.
Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other’s are already there.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1138308]Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel… the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.
The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don’t.
As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.
I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn’t fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It’s nice to work the fence or ground.
Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other’s are already there.[/QUOTE]
That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don’t compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don’t compete in MMA.
I understand your logic Ray but you can’t make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1138311]That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don’t compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don’t compete in MMA.
I understand your logic Ray but you can’t make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you completely. And I’m not knocking Kung Fu for having Kung Fu competitions. As you said, everyone does it.
I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics… if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.
Judo, kick boxing, BJJ and boxing… these have all revealed themselves to be useful, if not essential tools for MMA/higher levels of unarmed combat. The forum is already there and by its nature open to everything.
Kung Fu competing against Kung Fu will definitely improve the level of Kung Fu if they use a San Da/San Shou/full contact method. This should be standardized. And I would go so far as forming a TCMA Full Contact association in which schools can be members for only the years they sanctioned, competing fighters. That would differentiate schools right off the bat.
I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics… if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.
Not sure if it would be so much bringing MMA to San Shou as just allowing other styles, MMA included, a chance to compete in San Shou. I am completely against the CMA organizations that try and keep other styles from competing in their venues, as I think it is cowardly and BS to say the least. I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.
Really you can break it down as testing one’s set of skills. MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.
San Shou will never be as popular as MMA. Mostly because of the exposure MMA gets because of the UFC. Hell, no combat sport, not even boxing I don’t think will ever be as popular now because of this. My point for this thread was to go aganist those CMA organizations that do not allow other styles to compete in San Shou, because it not only limits the competitors which in turn hurts the development of their own fighters but it also alienates the rest of the martial arts world from Kung Fu and CMA, which is not good for Kung Fu as a whole.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138364]Popularity = what media forces down peoples throats.
He how controls the media, controls and dictates popularity.
Music is a prime example of this.[/QUOTE]
This. Think about where MMA was before the Fertita?? brothers and Dana White took over. They were all smart business men and marketed the hell out of it and made it mainstream through the media. If not for this, MMA would probably still be an underground sport with little to no backing.
It has been good for martial arts, except for the gazillion douchenozzles with TapOut shirts, sideways hats, and fake neck tattoos!!
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1138362] I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.[/QUOTE]
Those styles are all represented in MMA. MMA is not a style, it’s a sport. A set of rules for a combat sport.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1138362] MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.[/QUOTE]
I agree and disagree with you here.
I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can’t clobber the back of their head… in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn’t fair.
I appreciate long drown out ground games. It’s each person’s responsibility to improve their position… that’s regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands… people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.
As for San Shou, I like it, but I don’t like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage… also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic… MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.
If I would change anything, it would be to a single 20 min round format. If in 20 mins no one is KOed or tapped it’s a draw.
I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn’t like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don’t like MMA.
I’ve never been to an MMA show I wasn’t fighting in… I just don’t like the crowd/scene. With that said, I don’t like most crowds/scenes.
It’s not much different than football or any male entertainment: t!ts, beer, cars, explosions, bad movies.
… but it gives young athletes an opportunity to make a living at a sport they love. There’s some money now.
Don’t really get a great vibe from Dana White but sometimes he seems OK, like a good guy… got to give him credit. He saw the potential, stuck through with it when it was outlawed and locked it down.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1138371]I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn’t like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don’t like MMA.[/QUOTE]
I like mma.
It’s the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it’s fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.
at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn’t matter what the art.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1138370]I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can’t clobber the back of their head… in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn’t fair.
I appreciate long drown out ground games. It’s each person’s responsibility to improve their position… that’s regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands… people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.
As for San Shou, I like it, but I don’t like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage… also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic… MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.[/QUOTE]
Ray, I disagree with your statement that MMA only slightly favors Grapplers. In fact the whole cage idea is to prevent moving around and stand up fighting. The idea that MMA more accurately depicts a real fight is something I would disagree with as well.
Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be. What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone? Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by? No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.
MMA is definately brutal and a hardcore slug fest. I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time, I do see some good skillful peeps out there that are trying hard to be good fighter.
It’s the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it’s fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.
at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn’t matter what the art.[/QUOTE]
What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don’t exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.
In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent’s face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to
sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
turned my back on my opponent, and
predented that I had just done something terrible wrong.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138386]What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always punched on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don’t exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.[/QUOTE]
This is something I have also always disliked, although I can imagine that it is very not express your joy of winning something you’ve worked so hard to achieve. However, I have grown up studying Eastern spiritual/religious traditions which teach people to show humility in victory after defeating an opponent(s).
San Shou is an open format, its a set of rules that anyone can fight under. I have only fought in a few fights where it was set up to favor members of the organization for some reason other than them wanting you to join to give them some income (like it or not any competitive venue is likely going to be controlled by money as it grows).
The funny thing to me is that in the 7 years of San Shou fighting that I did, I only fought members of Chinese martial arts schools about 20% of the time, and much of that was in the first 2 years. Chinese schools by and large do not appear to fight much.
A good method seems to be to offer Judo/BJJ, Pancration/MMA of some sort, kickboxing or continuous stand up sparring with heavy contact, and San Shou all at the same event. That way there is some cross over, the people that want to fight can fight in multiple venues and there are more bodies.
Having been on the judging/ref side of things a few times I see why that doesnt usually work out as well though. Finding people that will judge or ref honestly (or even volunteer) is difficult, and money is usually tight.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138385]
Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be.[/QUOTE]
a ring is a closed off space just like a cage. A cage allows action to continue where in a ring a person can fall through the ropes. You can also push off a cage.
A fight will go where the fighters take it. I’ve seen many street fights go to the ground. I almost want to say most but won’t.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138385] What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone?[/QUOTE]
Then they’ll be fighting multiple people over glass… is this a San Shou specialty?
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138385] Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by?[/QUOTE]
It would depend on the situation. But grabbing a first guy and controlling him into the other might be a better option than duking it out.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138385]
No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.[/QUOTE]
31 seconds into this video you’ll see guard and then it being passed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp-rZfPcJ1k&feature=related
These entire series of YouTube street fight videos will without a doubt show fights wind up on the ground.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138385] I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time,[/QUOTE]
It’s usually the strongest, best shape guy who dominates any athletic endeavor…which is why conditioning/circuit training is a crucial aspect for anyone fighting.
The guy who conditions more, spars more, rolls more, heavy bags more, etc., etc., etc… becomes strong and skilled. Everyone you see fighting in the UFC is that guy: a dedicated, hard training fighter. They are not muscle heads they pulled from body building competitions. Their level of martial arts is much higher than ours.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138386]What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don’t exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.
In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent’s face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to
sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
turned my back on my opponent, and
predented that I had just done something terrible wrong. :([/QUOTE]
The difference is that these men are dealing with a greater level of emotion because they’re not facing “maybe get a bloody nose” in a no contact fight.They made an appointment to fight a professional for their career. A lot is at stake for these men… including their well being. They’re pumped full of adrenaline after laying it all on the line… they’re celebrating a victory. Or even just finishing uninjured. … its not an easy thing to do. Or more people here would do it.
well in regards to multiple people and real fights with grappling. if you were to fight me and my friend (thats just two people, imagine 4 or 5 where conflict actually does break out and all the guys want you down badly) and you even clinched with him, you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away… then its over. if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. show me one vid of a guy fighting at least two people and going to the ground looking for side control/ mount or what have you. ground fighting is not realistic in multiple person encounters. it just isnt. the most you would want to grapple is if you are forced by being engaged, or if you are using light grappling with constant mobility to dictate the movement of one person to shield you from another.
but then that only works if its 2 people. if you have 3 people, one will always be behind you. for real
[QUOTE=Lucas;1138395] if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. [/QUOTE]
This is my concern about the current MMA. The “mobility training - always ready to take off” is not emphasised. If you ever got into any gang fight, you should know that when cops come, you should take off ASAP.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1138125]Yes we have everything form forms, weapon, push hands, continuous, Shuai Chiao and san shou.
Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don’t come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?
Any other CMA tournament promoters see this?
ginosifu[/QUOTE]
I don’t know how it turned out but I once saw a 2 flyer type event that pushed Kungfu/tai chi forms then said they would then be doing point sparring with such and such karate not sure how it turned out though something like that might attract the other styles…who knows.
I also say keep it open to all styles thats how you learn most in competition I would say.
