Is San Shou the Appropriate Full-contact Expression for Kung Fu?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I tried this on the Wing Chun board with no response so…

Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.

However, after attending the Arnold Classic and seeing a lot of smoker quality San Shou, I was disturbed. It was mostly guys with marginal kung fu experience attempting marry kung fu and high school wrestling. All the while they were violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing/standing grappling, and judo-style throwing.

It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou in the North America. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, “kickboxing judoka,” or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?

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Well, one sponsored show shouldn’t be the foundation for dashing it all.

Ring fighting with a dab of nhb is popular these days. You’re gonna get a lot of goofballs up there who believe they have something to prove.

But yeah, out of 100 fighters, maybe 5 will be talented. :slight_smile:

what are you gonna do? :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1000357]Well, one sponsored show shouldn’t be the foundation for dashing it all.

Ring fighting with a dab of nhb is popular these days. You’re gonna get a lot of goofballs up there who believe they have something to prove.

But yeah, out of 100 fighters, maybe 5 will be talented. :slight_smile:

what are you gonna do? :p[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t even talent as much as it was people having no understanding of how to do San Shou properly.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1000360]It wasn’t even talent as much as it was people having no understanding of how to do San Shou properly.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I hear ya.

A lot of guys will look at the event first, the rules seconed and worry about the rest after that.

There simply are not a lot of really talented san shou guys out there yet.
The sport is not nurtured enough in North America and it is a fairly new thing in a widespread way.

Give it time. Look how UFC started! lol :smiley:

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full contact expression would be played out if people were being a direct physical threat to myself or my family. :slight_smile:

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I would say that it pretty much is. Pro-sanshou/sanda rules are better though (i.e, no headgear, no chest protectors and shin guards with knee strikes allowed). Modified Thai rules (or ‘Oriental rules’ as they are occasionally known) are also good. After that it’s MMA but CMA practitioners with no cross-training are disadvantaged by ground component. The various ‘traditional’ sanda/leitai rules (kuoshu etc) with open fingered gloves are also very good.

If you train gongfu and want to fight competitively but can find excuses not to, based on the constraints of each of the above formats, forget about it. Better just to practice for health or train for forms competitions.

BT

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I saw some half-c0cked Sanda in Hong Kong and my (then) sifu said… no.. this is not Kung Fu. what is the standard pro-sanda rule like at the moment?

Would it be possible for a rule to allow Chin-na (arms, legs..etc) and open palm (finger jab/palm..etc) techniques? Would it be safe?

My Hung Gar brothers fight Amateur Kickboxing rules and Karate All Style full contact rules in Melbounre, which is relatively safe for new fighters.

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[QUOTE=blackjesus;1000399]I saw some half-c0cked Sanda in Hong Kong and my (then) sifu said… no.. this is not Kung Fu. what is the standard pro-sanda rule like at the moment?

Would it be possible for a rule to allow Chin-na (arms, legs..etc) and open palm (finger jab/palm..etc) techniques? Would it be safe?

My Hung Gar brothers fight Amateur Kickboxing rules and Karate All Style full contact rules in Melbounre, which is relatively safe for new fighters.[/QUOTE]

SS/SD is kickboxing that allows low kicks, knees, and takedowns. One cannot touch the knees to the ground so it is mostly judo throws. Throws are scored based on how dynamic they are.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1000405]SS/SD is kickboxing that allows low kicks, knees, and takedowns. One cannot touch the knees to the ground so it is mostly judo throws. Throws are scored based on how dynamic they are.[/QUOTE]

I would disagree that they are judo throws. Of course you can use modified versions of certain judo throws in sanda but if you train sanda you are not training judo. Set ups and grips and finalisation are completely different. As far as I am aware or have ever exerienced, throws are not scored based on how dynamic they are. They are scored on execution. Maybe this is not the case in your country.

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[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1000419]I would disagree that they are judo throws. Of course you can use modified versions of certain judo throws in sanda but if you train sanda you are not training judo. Set ups and grips and finalisation are completely different. [/QUOTE]
If you are familiar with pickups in judo you should see the connection. Just because it is modified doesn’t mean that it isn’t judo. Obviously in some parts of the world fighters rely upon Sambo, BJJ, or Shui Jao for there trows, but in North America it is Judo. Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread. Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time. Also, I can almost guarantee that if you go into San Shou School in the U.S. that they will be teaching the trows using the Japanese to further illustrate my point.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1000419]
As far as I am aware or have ever exerienced, throws are not scored based on how dynamic they are. They are scored on execution. Maybe this is not the case in your country.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, clean execution figures into how devastating a throw is but…

The International Kickboxing Federation would disagree.
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/SanShouRules.htm

3 Points:

* Any HIGH ALTITUDE or EXPLOSIVE, DEVASTATING THROW shall be awarded 3 points.
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>If you are familiar with pickups in judo you should see the connection. Just because it is modified doesn’t mean that it isn’t judo.

It’s not meant to be. It’s not in China. (yes, I’ve trained in judo).

>Obviously in some parts of the world fighters rely upon Sambo, BJJ, or Shui Jao for there trows,

Sanda is built around shuaijiao. You are right about how it is outside of China though, however these people are technically not really trained in sanda. Nothing wrong with that though if they achieve good results.

>but in North America it is Judo.

O.K, fair enough. What about under Chinese coaches in U.S (or those who trained under Chinese coaches)? Is there a difference.

>Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread.

Shuai based gongfu definitely does have ‘those throws’, in my opinion. Then again I am talking about Sanda the way it is coached, trained and competed in China, where it is not judo based.

>Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time.

In many cases, but not in all. Most just have to learn to use boxing gloves and work pads. If they are from a shuai deficient style then yes, they may need to learn to throw. In the U.S, I guess this must be from judo for many schools (though I’m doubtful if it’s the case in dedicated sanda stables, though I will stand corrected).

> Also, I can almost guarantee that if you go into San Shou School in the U.S. that they will be teaching the throws using the Japanese to further illustrate my point.

I cannot argue that so i will take your word for it. Very strange as far as I’m concerned. I would guess that people trained this way would be very disadvantaged fighting in China, when it comes to throwing. From my limited understanding, many Judo throws rely very heavily on gi and belt grips and leverage and not much at all on head and neck control or being linked to trademark looping hook strikes and would need to be significantly modified to fit sanda. Many judo techniques are very compatible of course.

> 3 Points:

* Any HIGH ALTITUDE or EXPLOSIVE, DEVASTATING THROW shall be awarded 3 points.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

BT

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I see - just re read your post and your largely talking about pick ups throws. Yes, there is very little to no diff with those methods. Still, in my view there is a fair bit of diff with the rest, bar hip tosses. actually, i see more similarities between standard sanda shuai and wrestling than judo. anyway, off track…

nice one.

T

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1000421]Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread. Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time. [/QUOTE]
It’s much easier to integrate SC than Judo into Sanshou because

  • No-gi arm wrapping, and
  • Use strike to set up throw.

are already trained in the SC system.

Shuai Chiao is one style of the CMA systems. In the following clips, those guys are using 100% CMA (no Judo, no boxing, no MT).

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_5.wmv

Also there is no Judo, no boxing, no MT in the following Sanshou training clips.

http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_5.wmv

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1000572]

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_5.wmv

[/QUOTE]

Is it just me or are these 5 vids very frustration to watch, and why?

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You lose all sense of style in full-contact events… once you’ve been at it awhile. Just throw with what works for you. No style- just rules that you have to follow. You should modify your training based on those rules. No sense getting hung up on “this is sanda, that isn’t”. Hit hard, try to make the other guy miss, and throw them down when you can.

Heck- want to really peave people off? Develop a strategy to win by forcing your opponent out of the ring. Don’t even punch or throw, just shove.

(you know you can do that) :wink:

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1000599]You lose all sense of style in full-contact events… once you’ve been at it awhile. Just throw with what works for you. No style- just rules that you have to follow. You should modify your training based on those rules. No sense getting hung up on “this is sanda, that isn’t”. Hit hard, try to make the other guy miss, and throw them down when you can.

Heck- want to really peave people off? Develop a strategy to win by forcing your opponent out of the ring. Don’t even punch or throw, just shove.

(you know you can do that) ;)[/QUOTE]

id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol

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[QUOTE=kfson;1000576]Is it just me or are these 5 vids very frustration to watch, and why?[/QUOTE]
Is that because your computer (such as Apple) can only handle AVI files and not WMV file? Does anybody else have this problem?

[QUOTE=Lucas;1000601]id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol[/QUOTE]

Is that what Taiji pushing hands for? :smiley:

[QUOTE=MightyB;1000599]You lose all sense of style in full-contact events.[/QUOTE]
You are right.

  • A wrestler’s double legs is no different from a SC guy’s double legs.
  • A prey mantis guy’s hook punch is no different from a boxer’s hook punch.
  • A long fist guy’s round house kick is no different from a MT guy’s round house kick.

There is only effective way of doing thing. If a MT round house kick can generate more power than a long fist round house kick, it’s not because there are style difference but because the long fist guy does not do it right.

When we look at MA from this angle, the style will have little meaning.

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martial arts is a tool
there was no “foreign style” stigma

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If your gong fu is “shuai deficient” then it really isn’t gong fu, is it?:cool:

I don’t have any problem with American schools using kickboxing and judo in their sanda programs. Afterall, most gong fu practitioners of the past 50 years have been passing up wrestling tournaments and full-contact kickboxing matches and instead donning silk pajamas, focusing only on taolu, and bringing shame upon Chinese martial traditions.:frowning: These schools obviously have to get techniques that work from another art.

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judo = shuai jiao