[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169512]You need to look around dude and look hard and see that WC may be plagued by many things but a preponderance of fighters is NOT one of them.[/QUOTE]
And I really don’t mind that as much as others seem to! I’m not really into scrapping and such, I am more interested in delivering the system in more controlled ways. Sparring as exercise has it’s place but p l e a s e ! There are also many other attributes that need developing before you go on the mat or into a ring.
I prefer to coach people through that, and if they decide to go there I will supprt them to. But many guys I know with a very decent skill in Wing Chun can’t be bothered with changing their habits to suit referees and the like. Besides, there still isn’t enough money in it in the UK to make it viable so stop banging on about fighting fighting fighting because it really does get a little boring…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169519]And I really don’t mind that as much as others seem to! I’m not really into scrapping and such, I am more interested in delivering the system in more controlled ways. Sparring as exercise has it’s place but p l e a s e ! There are also many other attributes that need developing before you go on the mat or into a ring.
I prefer to coach people through that, and if they decide to go there I will supprt them to. But many guys I know with a very decent skill in Wing Chun can’t be bothered with changing their habits to suit referees and the like. Besides, there still isn’t enough money in it in the UK to make it viable so stop banging on about fighting fighting fighting because it really does get a little boring…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you understand what I am trying to say.
Sorry.
What I am saying is that IF there is a secret to “unlocking” the fighting aspect of WC, that “secret” is fighting.
When you fight with your WC you find what works, what doesn’t and how to make what doesn’t work, work.
The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.
It isn’t locked in books, scrolls, poems or archaic mumble-jumbo and nonsense.
You fight, just like THEY did.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169522]The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.
[/QUOTE]
And here all along I was thinking it was by sitting around drinking tea and discussing inch power chi development.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169522]The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.
It isn’t locked in books, scrolls, poems or archaic mumble-jumbo and nonsense.
You fight, just like THEY did.[/QUOTE]
I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it’s all just story after story.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169535]I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it’s all just story after story.[/QUOTE]
So your contention is that the old WC masters weren’t really that skilled at all - just overhyped?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169535]I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it’s all just story after story.[/QUOTE]
Dude, they FOUGHT.
That is enough.
They fought, they applied their WC, they saw what worked and what didn’t and went from there.
That is the commonality of all the “great” masters in all the various MA, they fought and they tested their art and that was how they were able to APPLY their art.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169544]Dude, they FOUGHT.
That is enough.
They fought, they applied their WC, they saw what worked and what didn’t and went from there.
That is the commonality of all the “great” masters in all the various MA, they fought and they tested their art and that was how they were able to APPLY their art.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree with a need to pressure test but a couple of points that spring to mind
if something doesn’t work in a fight is the technique at fault or your execution / skill level?
if something doesn’t work for you in a fight how do you know it won’t work next time?
if something works / doesn’t work for you in a fight does that mean it won’t work for someone else?
if something works in a fight does it mean it will work next time?
if something works in a fight is it because of the technique or a mistake by your opponent
you get the jist. Simply fighting requires a hell of a lot of fights to learn anything and anything you learn only applies to you. Learning anecdotally by other people’s fights allows you to learn from a far wider spectrum. Dealing with the psychological aspects of fighting and the harsh reality of the pace and distance of a real fight and what it feels like to really be hit have to be experienced so that the individual isn’t the weak link.
There are no secrets to wingchun, its simplicity is what makes it effective
It was not so long ago that Cho Ga students, in Nga Wu, were encouraged and expected to go out and fight after learning a new form or section. Fighting was an important part of the practical learning process. I heard many first hand accounts during my recent visit there. These days this doesnt happen so often.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1169541]So your contention is that the old WC masters weren’t really that skilled at all - just overhyped?[/QUOTE]
Overhyped? Yes. Not really that skilled? No, I believe they were. But stories are simply that.
My point is if we have to fight to learn then we will all be fighting for our entire lives and, for me, that is just simply not possible. I wouldn’t want that for myself, my family or my kids!
Ian summed it up well I think. SO many things are discovered whilst fighting you would need SO many fights to learn everything and we have our way of training Wing Chun that allows us to pressure test safely first. Man. This is WHY we have our interactive platforms! So we don’t have to go around fighting every Tom D1ck n Harry!
Then you have the whole competitive/real street argument.
I just want to train well, train hard and promote decent standards of Wing Chun. And unfortunately, I have never seem a platform for competition yet that allows this to happen. Never.
So I return to what I know best, which is to show how we train through performance instead!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169654]Overhyped? Yes. Not really that skilled? No, I believe they were. But stories are simply that.
My point is if we have to fight to learn then we will all be fighting for our entire lives and, for me, that is just simply not possible. I wouldn’t want that for myself, my family or my kids!
Ian summed it up well I think. SO many things are discovered whilst fighting you would need SO many fights to learn everything and we have our way of training Wing Chun that allows us to pressure test safely first. Man. This is WHY we have our interactive platforms! So we don’t have to go around fighting every Tom D1ck n Harry!
Then you have the whole competitive/real street argument.
I just want to train well, train hard and promote decent standards of Wing Chun. And unfortunately, I have never seem a platform for competition yet that allows this to happen. Never.
So I return to what I know best, which is to show how we train through performance instead![/QUOTE]
Nobody is saying you need to fight your entire life, but if your under 40 and not entering comps and non of your guys are, and you don’t spare hard and often then it’s a stretch to say you are teaching anything combat related
And we have full contact fighting events with gloves, with little gloves and just hand wraps/bare hand (in the uk these are illegal but you can find fights like this all over the place…hint go see your local gypsy camps!) we have comps that allow for stand up only, stand up and clinch only, or stand up clinch and ground, ,..and none of them in your view allows wing chun to truly flourish and work well?
Do you view wing chun as soothing different than a fighting art then?
And fighting/sparring isn’t performance in your view then what is exactly? How else do you pressure test your art to know its going to work if you need it?
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1169610]I don’t disagree with a need to pressure test but a couple of points that spring to mind
if something doesn’t work in a fight is the technique at fault or your execution / skill level?
if something doesn’t work for you in a fight how do you know it won’t work next time?
if something works / doesn’t work for you in a fight does that mean it won’t work for someone else?
if something works in a fight does it mean it will work next time?
if something works in a fight is it because of the technique or a mistake by your opponent
you get the jist. Simply fighting requires a hell of a lot of fights to learn anything and anything you learn only applies to you. Learning anecdotally by other people’s fights allows you to learn from a far wider spectrum. Dealing with the psychological aspects of fighting and the harsh reality of the pace and distance of a real fight and what it feels like to really be hit have to be experienced so that the individual isn’t the weak link.
There are no secrets to wingchun, its simplicity is what makes it effective[/QUOTE]
These are all questions that are answered by fighting consistently.
Not to make clear, no one is suggesting that we spend our life fighting and most certianly the past masters didn’t.
But what MUST be done to “unlock” these “secrets” is to TEST our our in a fighting environment.
In the past challenge matches were an option that we don’t have NOR need today.
We have limited rules venues and other alternatives.
It is by testing that we find out how good we are, how good our understanding of a system we have and what we need to do to make it work.
[QUOTE=Frost;1169657]Do you view wing chun as soothing different than a fighting art then?[/QUOTE]
No. But I do not view Wing Chun as a ‘sparring or competitive’ art. I train a system that has sparring as a tiny part of the whole, and we spar ‘differently’ too as we have various interactive training platforms.
[QUOTE=Frost;1169657]And fighting/sparring isnt performance in your view then what is exactly?[/QUOTE]
By performance, in my earlier post, I am referring to actual performing, like on stage. We are quite closely linked to the Canton Opera, so we have always put shows together and the like and this is what I do best.
[QUOTE=Frost;1169657]How else do you pressure test your art to know its going to work if you need it?[/QUOTE]
We have quite a few ways actually, outside of standard Chisau practise. We tend to be more controlled but the pressure is still there. We specialize in paired and group practise too which adds another layer to testing your basics.
My point is, none of the guys I train with are training for comps. Not many are even that interested for reasons I have said many times before. But if any do get that buzz from it all, then we would train more sparring. Simple.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169669]No. But I do not view Wing Chun as a ‘sparring or competitive’ art. I train a system that has sparring as a tiny part of the whole, and we spar ‘differently’ too as we have various interactive training platforms.
By performance, in my earlier post, I am referring to actual performing, like on stage. We are quite closely linked to the Canton Opera, so we have always put shows together and the like and this is what I do best.
We have quite a few ways actually, outside of standard Chisau practise. We tend to be more controlled but the pressure is still there. We specialize in paired and group practise too which adds another layer to testing your basics.
My point is, none of the guys I train with are training for comps. Not many are even that interested for reasons I have said many times before. But if any do get that buzz from it all, then we would train more sparring. Simple.[/QUOTE]
So it’s a fighting art that trains fighting by not doing much fighting then or a performace art like dance which you judge on how good you look when doing compliant demos?
So your guys aren’t interested in the fighting aspects, but more the dance performance side? A bit like tai chi for health fu and fitness
Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel “good” about themselves.
[QUOTE=Frost;1169670]So it’s a fighting art that trains fighting by not doing much fighting then or a performace art like dance which you judge on how good you look when doing compliant demos?
So your guys aren’t interested in the fighting aspects, but more the dance performance side? A bit like tai chi for health fu and fitness[/QUOTE]
If that’s what you see, then that’s what you see dude.
Fighting without fighting… now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169670]Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel “good” about themselves.[/QUOTE]
Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!
I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word ‘sparring’ it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169675]If that’s what you see, then that’s what you see dude.
Fighting without fighting… now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.
Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!
I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word ‘sparring’ it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol!
Funny guys…[/QUOTE]
I think YOUR understanding of “traditional” and mine are VERY, VERY different dude.
Traditional Martial arts were developed for what reason?
To fight with, period.
WC was developed for what reason?
To fight with, period.
Spencer, you started a thread called “secret true wing chun”, right?
Well, there is only ONE secret do making WC what it was DESIGNED FOR:
Fighting unlocks all the secrets.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169675]If that’s what you see, then that’s what you see dude.
Fighting without fighting… now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.
Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!
I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word ‘sparring’ it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol!
Funny guys…[/QUOTE]
Insults you are the one who talked about performance, the opera and demos im just trying to understand your view point as its totally different from any TCMA approach I have seen before
For instance my current TCMA coach encourages us to do sticky hand work as well, which progresses into attached free flow sparring allowing shots to the body with power shots to the head (controlled) locks and throws are also encouraged. We also do unattached barehand controlled sparing, as well as gloving up and going harder,
My previous master taught sticky, as well as encouraged his guys to fight both semi and full contact
So Im just trying to understand what you are talking about no other motive, if you’re not interested in the fighting aspects but see it as something more that’s cool, I enjoy the performance side too, but personally without sparring in various formats I for one aren’t comfortable knowing something works without that feedback, sparring can be unattached or attached at various intensities
If you use other platforms could you explain them? Do they include contact work and attacks that are not prearranged and do they continue
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169678]Spencer, you started a thread called “secret true wing chun”, right?[/QUOTE]
Read the first post I think you will find I was simply sharing a Youtube video of someone promoting Yuen Kay Shan lineage by suggesting that the secrets to learning Wing Chun back in the day was having money lol!!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169678]Well, there is only ONE secret do making WC what it was DESIGNED FOR:
Fighting unlocks all the secrets.[/QUOTE]
And I am not arguing with you about fighting because I know what you mean dude but I don’t have to agree with you!
[QUOTE=Frost;1169680]…sparring can be unattached or attached at various intensities
If you use other platforms could you explain them? Do they include contact work and attacks that are not prearranged and do they continue[/QUOTE]
Yes yes and yes. :rolleyes:
This is what I am saying, but because I use the word ‘interactive’ it ISN’T sparring to YOU??! But what you describe are very similar methods we do all the time. Granted, we rarely allow the detached, full contact, ground fighting MMA approach but as I have also said, if a student wanted to progress into comps etc I personally would have no issues doing that sort of thing or recommending guys I know to train them in other arts.
But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don’t fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.
I can do Wing Chun while I’m cleaning my house but that doesn’t mean I’m busting holes in walls with my shadowless kick!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169699]But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don’t fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.[/QUOTE]No that is not what they’re saying. The question they are posing is: “how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don’t compete outside of your training circle”?
but that doesn’t mean I’m busting holes in walls with my shadowless kick!