[QUOTE=CFT;1169709]No that is not what they’re saying. The question they are posing is: “how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don’t compete outside of your training circle”?[/QUOTE]
FWIW I don’t even think it’s that they are saying, but in answer to your question, why would I want to know my Wing Chun is effective? And effective in what way exactly? Sparring? Maintaining my health? Street fights? Competition? And why do I even want to compete with Wing Chun with anyone?
It is an age-old boring debate IMO which does nothing for where I am at today with my own training. I can answer all my own questions, sitting on both sides of the proverbial sparring fence, but it doesn’t help me.
It’s great that people who learn Martial Arts want to compete, and fight, but that was never the reason I got into it at all. It seems to be more of a modern thing? Influenced by modern trends and I have never really followed trends.
I have also asked these guys why they don’t go into a nearby Wing Chun school and ‘spar’ in a Chisau format with some guys outside their circles, but no. They don’t do that because our training is all so pointless and they would whoop our ass!! Right :rolleyes: I have also said on more than one occassion that I would recommend anyone interested in this sort of thing to enter sanctioned Sanda/Sanshou events I know of in the UK.
And can I remind everyone that it was a martial uncle of mine, Joseph Cheng, that literally tore up anyone in his path and became pretty well known around the world for his fighting skills because he openly trained and sparred with anyone and everyone at the time.
You might be interested to know he never ‘sparred’ with his Wing Chun brothers either
[QUOTE=CFT;1169709]No that is not what they’re saying. The question they are posing is: “how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don’t compete outside of your training circle”?[/QUOTE]
Well, that is PART of it yes, of course that is common sense.
But what I am saying is that for THIS topic ( Secret true WC), the only secret to WC is that you have to fight with it to unlock its “secrets”.
Which is exactly the same for every other MARTIAL art.
You don’t unlock the “secrets” of Judo by NOT doing randori.
You don’t unlock the “secrets” of driving by reading the car manual or a driving instruction book or by going out on a closed road, you unlock them by actually driving and the more you drive and the higher the level of difficult of the “track”, the better you get at it.
I hear ya Sanjuro and maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have.
And can I remind everyone that it was a martial uncle of mine, Joseph Cheng, that literally tore up anyone in his path and became pretty well known around the world for his fighting skills because he openly trained and sparred with anyone and everyone at the time.
Anyone? Are you sure of that?
But what does that have to do with you.
Late in the “conversation”- maybe I missed something.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169699]But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don’t fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, I agree with them. So I guess that makes it three guys
To answer your question, yes, if you don’t ‘fight’ you are not really doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun is about FIGHTING. If you never fight, or at the very least least spar (put on the gloves and go at it), then you have never really tested your art and you haven’t really ‘used’ your wing chun. Doing chi sau and drills develops your skills only so far, but that’s not wing chun - that’s just curriculum.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169699]maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have. [/QUOTE]
I’m curious, why the for a Wing Chun only platform? There are plenty of venues and ways to test our art besides having to create a WC-specific one (many of which have already been mentioned). What’s wrong with local comps, smokers, etc? I guess if someone doesn’t want to do these things, that’s coll. But if that same person is only drilling/chi sauing within the safety of those in their school, they are cutting thier skill development very short IMO, and probably not really ‘testing’/applying thier art..
I totally respect people doing WC, or any MA, for whatever reason as well and not just necessarily for fighting.
But I guess in a way I am like a little kid building a toy car, and I love playing with friends and racing against their toy cars as well. I love crossing hands with other stylists, who put aside politics and agender and enjoy a good exchange. Can’t stand those who think they are the best and know everything and that their art is better than everyone else’s.
I can never understand how people could train with great devotion but never wanting to test it. But I do respect their reasons and choices.
I don’t believe in any competitions that’s WC specific. However, I am helping a Sanda trainer to use WC (KLWC) techniques/strategies to score points.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1168988]I have yet to watch this all the way through as it’s literally just gone up on Youtube, but I found it very interesting indeed. May not be great for us Wing Chun guys who want unity rather than division, but hey we can’t have it all…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169733]Well, that is PART of it yes, of course that is common sense.
But what I am saying is that for THIS topic ( Secret true WC), the only secret to WC is that you have to fight with it to unlock its “secrets”.
Which is exactly the same for every other MARTIAL art.
You don’t unlock the “secrets” of Judo by NOT doing randori.
You don’t unlock the “secrets” of driving by reading the car manual or a driving instruction book or by going out on a closed road, you unlock them by actually driving and the more you drive and the higher the level of difficult of the “track”, the better you get at it.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you , you right . That ’ s the only way the truth will come out , is when you fight with wing chun . Other than that how in hell are you really going to know about wing chun ? If you don ’ t spar or test out wing chun ?
We all come in different sizes and shapes so therefore our wing chun hand techniques should be used in a way that will be workable for us , should the sutuation occur . And if people say that the stories of people like Ip Man or WSL are just stories , then we have to test it out ourselves . Then that way we can all unlock the secrets of wing chun .
And if WC is such a junk art then , why are people still learning WC from the guys who really learned from Ip Man or WSL thenselves . Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ’ t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself . Even on this WC thread people still want to learn WC from David Peterson , so that ’ s why his Wc seminar is still posted . If WC did ’ nt work , but people are still learning from Ip Mans’ or WSL students , then it means one thing , they found out how to make it work for them . People began to be open minded and really experimented with the WC techniques themselves , analyzed it and figured out a way to make it work .
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169671]Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel “good” about themselves.[/QUOTE]
Maybe all that fighting that you do has resulted in one too many blows to the head
prearranged partner drills have always been used by every martial art on the planet as a way of teaching concepts and applications of techniques. Partner A provides stimulus Y and you react by X. It has a natural and useful place in the learning process before introducing more degrees of freedom on both sides until finally you end up with either chi sau or sparring or both. Its not just for beginners either before I get accused of saying that, polishing individual building blocks by repetition over the years is a necessary part of continuous improvement.
For what its worth, I don’t include “sparring” in my classes and I would never encourage any of my fighters to enter competitions (although I wouldn’t stop them if they wanted to). The whole premise of WC is as a street effective system that equallises things for the smaller person, if there is a competition that allows groin strikes, throat strikes, strikes to the back, eye gouges and knees and kicks to downed opponents then it is probably a decent test of ones WC but who on earth would volunteer to take part when there is a real risk of serious injury? the money would have to be extremely good.
I prefer to pressure test my students (and myself) by using body armour, scenario drills, mutliple attackers etc attackers throwing full power, resisting and doing anything that comes to mind.
Its my choice, but ever since Kano created judo there have been two schools of thought in martial arts. One school is to remove the most dangerous techniques and create sporting competitions that can hone reflexes and allow pressure testing, the other is to retain the techniques that cannot be used in full contact training / competition and accept that reflexes have to be honed in other ways. The advent of modern protective equipment has meant that the gap has closed but there is still a gap and everyone must choose their own path.
How do I know my WC works? because it has done every time I’ve needed it. Equally some of my students are in professions where they are exposed to violence regularly and it works for them. Is my way the only way? absolutely not, but it is a way. Does the sporting way work? absolutely for some, but there are equally many competition fighters from boxers to MMA fighters that come unstuck because the rules change in the street.
Both are vaild approaches, the trick IMHO is to be aware of the limitations of your chosen approach and devise ways of getting round them.
Wow. I go to sleep, get up, struggle into work and it really looks like some good discussing going on here. Balancing the for and against sparring a little better I think, so thanks for all your posts.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1169771]I’m curious, why the for a Wing Chun only platform?[/QUOTE]
I mentioned that because this is what seems to be missing. Otheres also mentioned training/sparring outside your own circle, so I presume that was meant to suggest other Wing Chun people.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1169771]Anyone? Are you sure of that? (RE: Joseph Cheng taking on any challenegers)
But what does that have to do with you?[/QUOTE]
Well, nothing Joy. Other than being relevant to what was being suggested, about us Wing Chun guys never sparring outside our own comfort zone. I only mentioned my uncle because he was doing that in the mid 1970s, and if you knew any other history about my lineage, others have actively fought many other styles over the years, both for fun and for face.
I know and understand the differences in the fight these days in comparison to then, but still wanted to make a point that Wing Chun people have been actively ‘out there’ for many many years.
You for one, I would have thought, would understand why I mentioned it.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1169754]I hear ya Sanjuro and maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have.[/QUOTE]
Why not?
Egos and politics and the ridiculous " I have the real WC" aside, why not?
[QUOTE=lance;1169785]I agree with you , you right . That ’ s the only way the truth will come out , is when you fight with wing chun . Other than that how in hell are you really going to know about wing chun ? If you don ’ t spar or test out wing chun ?
We all come in different sizes and shapes so therefore our wing chun hand techniques should be used in a way that will be workable for us , should the sutuation occur . And if people say that the stories of people like Ip Man or WSL are just stories , then we have to test it out ourselves . Then that way we can all unlock the secrets of wing chun .
And if WC is such a junk art then , why are people still learning WC from the guys who really learned from Ip Man or WSL thenselves . Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ’ t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself . Even on this WC thread people still want to learn WC from David Peterson , so that ’ s why his Wc seminar is still posted . If WC did ’ nt work , but people are still learning from Ip Mans’ or WSL students , then it means one thing , they found out how to make it work for them . People began to be open minded and really experimented with the WC techniques themselves , analyzed it and figured out a way to make it work .[/QUOTE]
WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly “no fighting till you are good enough”, or none of this pointless “too deadly” crap and none of this “you can’t compete” crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC “master” suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1169787]Maybe all that fighting that you do has resulted in one too many blows to the head
prearranged partner drills have always been used by every martial art on the planet as a way of teaching concepts and applications of techniques. Partner A provides stimulus Y and you react by X. It has a natural and useful place in the learning process before introducing more degrees of freedom on both sides until finally you end up with either chi sau or sparring or both. Its not just for beginners either before I get accused of saying that, polishing individual building blocks by repetition over the years is a necessary part of continuous improvement.[/QUOTE]
Actually it’s not and creates horrific habits and while it CAN be a tool for the very novice, it should be discarded as soon as the novice has gotten over his “fear” of getting hit.
Need I point out all the very effective combat systems that do NOT use them?
Need I point out that in an actual fight NOTHING like what happens in a pre-arranged routine ever happens?
[QUOTE=lance;1169785] Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ’ t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself .
Fong is my sifu not my sigung.
What can I say.His understanding of wing chun is as good as it gets. And I have met with quite a few of Ip man’s top students…plus from the next generation as well. And in his time he has fought as well.
He learned from Ho Kam Ming who spent as much training time with Ip man as anyone and (Ho)regularly did chi sao with Ip man himself.And has produced good fighters. And Fong sifu keeps on evolving.
Many of his students have fought- not just practiced with other WC people. I have top quality si hings and top quality regular practicing brothers. I am not referring to the occasional students.
One of the things that attracted me to wing chun is to put the fighting that I had done in perspective. Why something works and how to make those things even better. And I still work out with people testing wc against things that are not wc. WC is a gateway not the only one- but a very unique one.
I have tested things in order to know of their effectiveness-not for the popcorn and peanut gallery but for myself.One ultimately takes care of one self.(Self defense)
As I have said before there are many ways to fight.Each fight is an unique event.
Lots of people who learn wing chun IMO have had poor instruction and many would be better off doing something else that they understand better.
I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.
I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.
Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can’t help you if you don’t understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn’t.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169797]WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly “no fighting till you are good enough”, or none of this pointless “too deadly” crap and none of this “you can’t compete” crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC “master” suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.[/QUOTE]
All kudos to you for saying what you think about Wing Chun but remind me again who you learnt from and if you teach Wing Chun?
In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?
I only asked, because I have always been under the impression that you were not a Wing Chun student, yet here you are telling us all what it’s supposed to be about! Not that I have an issue with that coz some/most of what you say is spot on, but I’m just wondering.
And on the Wing Chun Competition note and why I think it will never happen? That’s a whole other thread…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1169804]Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can’t help you if you don’t understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn’t.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.[/QUOTE]
Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1169815]--------------------------------
Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.
joy[/QUOTE]
I see what you’re saying here Joy. And I will try and take on that little gem of advice.
