Resolving the forms "issue"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=TenTigers;957086]I don’t think you understood my point. It is not about learning another form, or skillset. It is about understanding and nailing the details-in this case, I was referring to the transitional movements. Not different movements, but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.
Beginners seem to look at it like,“I’m here-in this stance doing this technique, then I step to here, and do this technique,etc.”
It’s the “Then I step and..” part, where the gaps occur.
The way a seasoned fighter can just slip a punch, where is brushes his head and misses by a C.H.
Or the timing of a counter strike that intercepts your attackers intent, rather than his strike. You counter the “p” not the “unch.”
these have nothing to do with learning an “advanced” form.
You are correct. There are no secrets.
The secret is, (and not to sound mystical or “high falootin”) can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists?
If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.[/QUOTE]

This is where many “bunkai” ( applications) and “himitsu” ( Hidden hands) of karate come from.
Taking techniques from forms and trying to make them work and then seeing that its NOT the end technique but how one gets there, that is the kicker.
And because people do things differently (transitions) you can have a technique with mulltiple applications and then comes the “true” application" or the debates about whether it is a "grappling " application or a “striking” application or an “armed” application, etc, etc.

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Chicken or the Egg…

It could be that I’m experiencing the Chicken or the Egg phenomena in art. Would I be able to do a tu sau to cut past an opponent’s defense, would I use Du Sau Ti Sa Na Ding to punch somebody, would I be able to feel my way past an opponent’s defense to off-balance them without the forms training or is it that I’ve gotten to a point where I can’t remember not knowing how to do that stuff so now I’m at a point where forms/style have become irrelevant? Especially now since I know how to blend the mantis with the throwing and groundwork with Judo and no longer give a F*** about what position my foot happens to be in when I kick someone in the face or if my du sau was with the pinky or whole hand when I’m applying a straight arm crush after a particularly nasty uchi mata.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;957086]but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.[/quote]

It’s the “Then I step and..” part, where the gaps occur.
the point of inflection.

can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists?
no… most people cannot…

If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.
secrets only last for so long. :smiley:

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LOL!! funny stuff this way of the tao…

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another aspect of this is that the subject matter itself is so variant and vast. its hard to nail down in simple text conversation.

from style to style, region to region, even within the same house, there are so many different types of forms. Every style uses them to one extent or another.

Some work a single techniques form, over and over and over in a patternized drill. some string several techniques together for a quick combination, practiced over and over and over as a patternized drill. some string 10-200 techniques together, for the exact same reason.

the more aspects put into a form, the more aspects that will be drilled when you are doing solo work.

for instance: some forms are strickly a 3 punch combination drill. some involve footwork, awareness drills, balance drills, etc.

the point being, that what ever material is within the form you are practicing, is the material that that particular form will teach/drill/reinforce/introduce/etc.

the reason seasoned practitioners will do forms that they have been doing for 20+ years? Repetative upkeep. you dont use it you lose it.

for some people, form work is one of the primary places they may recieve specific in line drill work for specific elements. balance/stability/structure/transition/etc…

for many chinese styles, the way to move is ingrained within the form. from standing to standing, every physical aspect besides direct resistance is often times displayed, trained, drilled, and expanded upon within the form.

just depends on what form your doing.

example, western boxers use drill form ALOT

what do you suppose a lot of pad work entails? correct execution, part of which is within the form of said technique.

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I don’t like forms, why?
I like to hit stuff !
:stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;957033]buk sing isn’t the only one’s out there that WON’T.[/QUOTE]

it took my stepdad ten years to show me bits of the method…like he scared kaido would come back from the grave like “THRILLER” and punch him in the head:)

for some reason Paulie Zink’s name entered my mental screen…

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;957097]I don’t like forms, why?
I like to hit stuff !
:p[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYUikEmEkls&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky70E88tFrU&feature=related
:wink:

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[QUOTE=MightyB;957042]

The secret is in repeatable practice against live partners with various forms of resistance (look at my tai chi example). The more you can do that- the better you get.[/QUOTE]

Bingo!

…

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;957150]Bingo![/QUOTE]i get plenty of resistance training bouncing my body parts of of objects at the block job: pushing wheelbarrows, banging my head on scaffolding, kicking my shin on a cinder block, stepping on a stone rake which causes it to fly up and smash me in the face if i don’t block it(yes - it doesn’t only happen in tom and jerry), jumping into the hole, jumping out of the hole… resistance training comes in a variety of ways, especially if one puts just a tiny amount of effort into making the best of every movement and aspect of the day. once again, i practice martial arts so that i do not have to fight. :slight_smile:

that’d be an I on 27… :stuck_out_tongue:

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A few things I’d like to add.

First, this is for Bawang, forms are a lot older than just the 1800’s, and were used by more than just “street performers”

1100 B.C.-King Wu of Zhou created martial dances known as Xiang Wu

206 B.C.-After destryoing the Qin Dynasty, Liu Bang traveled to Hongmen to meet with Xiang Yu. Xiang Zhuang began a sword dance as entertainment, but in actuality intended to strike Liu Bang with his sword. “Xiang Bo followed suit, sheilding with his body so that Xiang Zhuang could not strike Liu Bang”(Records of the Historian)

184 A.D. to 220 A.D.-A famous doctor by the name of Hua Tuo created the “Wu Qin Xi” which contained animal postures that imitated the tiger, deer, bear, monkey, and bird

Northern Qi-550 A.D. to 577 A.D. - A form of opera emerged which incorporated acrobatic fight play. The “Yue Fu Za Lu” states that “performances done with masks started in Northern Qi”. The play “King Lan Ling” was performed by masked actors depicting the king in command of his troops

712 A.D. to 756 A.D.-Hard Qi Gong performances started to appear, this is also the time when lion dancing became prevalent

So, forms have definitely been a traditional part of chinese culture for many years.

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Secondly, I believe that forms have become so prevalent today largely because of a lazy and unfocused european culture.

If I am trying to teach someone a system of movement, but that person only has 3 hours a week to dedicate themselves, and expects to learn the system in 5 years, that does not leave a lot of time for the conditioning and fighting aspects of the system. Which is why western society is so focused on forms training. It allows you to impart the feeling of the system, without the hard work required to actually use it.

If you want to be a good mantis practitioner, you need great strength, great speed, great stamina, great flexibility, and great knowledge. 3 hours a week is just not enough time to do it properly. It is enough time to give you some dance moves and make you feel good about yourself though. And I think thats what it comes down to.

Every school has its main class, all the people who come to experience kung fu, and then there is that small group of dedicated individuals who choose to immerse themselves fully in the ocean that is martial arts. These people work all the aspects, conditioning, technique, fighting, knowledge, spritual, etc.. But the people willing to put that effort out are few and far between.

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When I practice forms (I see a lot of other people doing this), I have a tendency to practice the form in order to be able to perform the form better. I have things that I’m trying to do like expressing jing, making sure my hands and feet are where they should be, trying to be fluid, make no mistakes, move fast when I have to move fast, pause for emphasis, etc… the problem is that I’m practicing the form to make my performance better. Everyone I see does this- we practice the form so we can do it better. :confused:

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Getting better at a form requires getting better at the techniques. Being better at the techniques means you are better at using them instinctively. Sparring isn’t always effective, especially when it degenerates into a rock’em sock’em match. Inability to utilize techniques in a practical manner, derived from forms, makes sparring nothing more than a reinforcement session of bad habits under the guise of “real” training.

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Depends on the form.

At the beginning stages, there are forms that teach nothing but stances, Ba Shi. No one is going to perform that at a tournament or demo.

Then there are forms that are nothing but principle techniques executed in the four different directions to teach you transitional basics.

Then there are the forms that could be considered more “performance oriented” ie: beng bu, shir ba shou, etc.. But those forms also have themes of their own.

Beng Bu - Hard forward Attacking

Shir Ba Shou - Repeating pattern on both sides to teach left and right technique.

Also, if you are familiar with the 76 individual techniques, I think that you will find performed in the correct order, the forms will slowly add all 76. Many of them repeat, but each form adds a few new pieces to the puzzle.

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Stances are very important. We’re talking about forms in general, yes? Or are we talking about crowd-pleasers only?

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Sorry Drake, my reply was meant for Mighty B.

I think throughout the thread, people have been steered away from the concept of the more basic forms. If you want to count all forms, then Hill Climbing stance with Reverse Punch is a form, and a very necessary one at that.

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[Then there are the forms that could be considered more “performance oriented” ie: beng bu,

From most Mantis schools, they say that Bung Bo is the form that Wong Long created, when he created the Mantis style. Why would that be considered a performance set? Unless in your Mantis system it is different?

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;957260][Then there are the forms that could be considered more “performance oriented” ie: beng bu,

From most Mantis schools, they say that Bung Bo is the form that Wong Long created, when he created the Mantis style. Why would that be considered a performance set? Unless in your Mantis system it is different?[/QUOTE]

I only meant that as in relation to a basic pattern such as Ba Shi (Eight Steps/Stances).

Beng Bu is more like a dictionary of principles. Although it could still be considered a performance set. I have about 5 different versions of that particular set, some flashier than others.

I wouldn’t consider any Mantis form to be performance only. Every one contains at least one move or combination not found in another set, and they all have a particular concept or flavor to them.

Forms are such a diverse area of study, that its hard to pin them down. Sometimes I like them to dissect for techniques, sometimes I use them as a work out, sometimes they are done for a flashy performance. Depends on the set and the reason I am doing it.

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[QUOTE=Psycho Mantis;957251]Sorry Drake, my reply was meant for Mighty B.

I think throughout the thread, people have been steered away from the concept of the more basic forms. If you want to count all forms, then Hill Climbing stance with Reverse Punch is a form, and a very necessary one at that.[/QUOTE]

Actually- I think the single most important form in Mantis is probably one of it’s newest and is only found in the LKY 7* line which is Sub Sa Lo. It’s definitely not pretty. Basically it’s a line drill. But after years of contemplation, IMO it’s by far the single most important form in the whole system for people who actually want to study martial arts for the sole reason to learn self defense.