forms are expressions of ourselves… i am a freeformist - just let your body follow your intention… i always hear the petty arguments that forms are impractical to actual fighting, obviously this is nothing more than an extreme mindset. if anything, forms allow one to practice movement, which is especially helpful when engaging multiple attackers… yet for me, doing form amounts to a meditation where i can zone out and let myself go… in form, your only limitation is your mind.
reflecting on it… forms are usually only done by those with a spiritual mindset in regards to the martial arts.
[QUOTE=bawang;956839]performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the “spiritual” part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt “fun” anymore[/QUOTE]
interesting what about the tongs with there secret forms…meaning if you demo this dance outside of the school you will be shot?..i know this street guy 22 years old he is a good fighter did judo and played hockey at a college level…he is street i know if he studied all of the advanced combo’s in my system he would be powerful like a shaman…he is a powerful guy girls love him and guys want to party with him but he is ignorant he has no spiritual power and I would never show him how to do the postures properly he would get too strong and ****y prolly get himself shot. sounds hokey but there is something to CMA at a higher level…most practitioners may seem high but there is something there.
like buk sing choi li fut only has four sets orsomething but they won’t show them to the public in full properly…
Forms aren’t bad but I think we’re going a little too far with them… there may be something there regarding the spiritually-minded martial artist and form.
I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling… then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work… sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;957019]I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling… then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work… sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
Funakoshi once said, forms must be done perfectly, real fighting is a different matter.
Forms can serve a mirad of functions.
Do you need forms to fight? NO.
Do you need forms to do learn a MA ? NO.
Are forms a waste of time? NO.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;957019]Forms aren’t bad but I think we’re going a little too far with them… there may be something there regarding the spiritually-minded martial artist and form.
I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling… then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work… sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
I’ve said this before; forms that are designed to train developmental aspects are different than forms that are a textbook of the system’s techniques, theories concepts, etc.
Siu Lim Tau is developmental. It teaches the beginner WCK person to develop alignment, structure, proper elbow position, and proper execution of movements required to learn the system.
For you Ray, it would certainly be unneccesary, as you are not a WCK practitioner. It wouldn’t serve you.
Perhaps Ying Yi Kuen’s (hsingyi) Five Elements would be a better choice, as it is something you have absorbed into your training and your structure more.
Someone like Alan Orr, Terrance, etc would practice SLT, even if they did that routine, as they practice MMA as well as their WCK and integrate them.
There is a reason why past Masters of styles that utilize developmental forms always say, " (whatever style) begins and ends with (their developmental form)"
i.e. Sanchin/saamjien, Siu Lim Tau, Ng Hang, Sam Bo Ging
After reading all of your posts and some personal insight- This is what’s taking shape in my head:
Forms are a type of martial-folk dance. Yes- they are a type of dance. They help with balance, grace, and coordination issues (like all forms of dancing will do) but that’s all they really do for the martial artist. They are better suited to the martial artist if they at least mimic the techniques that are used in fighting.
Take tai-chi as an example. Looking at it in “levels” -
forms are for beginners. They will be able to serve a function of strengthening the legs for low level stances (important as a defensive base against throwers) and training the practitioner how to move about in a deep stance.
Phase two for the beginner should be push hands - which are really about balance and coordination in that deep stance against a partner.
The next phase is push hands wrestling (looks like shuai chiao, Americans have no idea about this level). This is deep stance free style wrestling.
The final level is San Da.
Unfortunately- we have this idea that there are “secrets” contained in the forms that will somehow transmit ultimate power to us if we were just to learn that one more form.
The secret is in repeatable practice against live partners with various forms of resistance (look at my tai chi example). The more you can do that- the better you get.
in Taiji the forms also teach the movements between the movements-the transitions, which beginners cannot yet absorb. Being able to move from one position to another while maintaining your structure is difficult.
The difference-an all arts between low level and high level is “closing the gaps”-as my SPM teacher would say.
There are many gaps. Gaps in transition while maintaing structure, gaps in timing, gaps in reaction, gaps in positioning your body, etc.
[QUOTE=MightyB;957042]…Take tai-chi as an example. Looking at it in “levels” -
forms are for beginners. They will be able to serve a function of strengthening the legs for low level stances (important as a defensive base against throwers) and training the practitioner how to move about in a deep stance.
Phase two for the beginner should be push hands - which are really about balance and coordination in that deep stance against a partner. [/QUOTE]
hmmmnnnn… I tried a little push hands and got bounced all over the room..
I must still be a beginner I guess.
I think you young guys just have a whole different perspective than us who don’t even start until we’re old… Besides, doing the form is a whole 'nuther animal.
When in class learning the form, then we’re not doing the form…
But at home, when just doing the form; then there is that transport to a different place in your mind, and I don’t know of a different way to get “there” from here without the form.
And frankly, anybody who can do the 108 and then progress on is not a beginner at anything. I just hope I make there while still in this world…
[QUOTE=TenTigers;957045]in Taiji the forms also teach the movements between the movements-the transitions, which beginners cannot yet absorb. Being able to move from one position to another while maintaining your structure is difficult.
The difference-an all arts between low level and high level is “closing the gaps”-as my SPM teacher would say.
There are many gaps. Gaps in transition while maintaing structure, gaps in timing, gaps in reaction, gaps in positioning your body, etc.[/QUOTE]
Why is it that people think beginners can’t absorb something that’s derived from a form?
I’ll use myself as an example. I started Kung Fu when I was 17 (previously I had wrestled and done some karate off and on). I was at my peak physical condition. I just finished winning the regional track meet as a middle distance runner. I was weight training everyday. And I was (and still am) naturally athletic. Using hindsight as a measure, there was no form that existed in any system that I couldn’t learn and physically perform at that time including the highly physical stuff of modern wushu. Not only that- there wasn’t a form that I couldn’t have learnt and performed well. I was more than physically capable. Yet, using traditional methodology- the “advanced” stuff was reserved for those who’ve been in the system for a long time. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. What would make sense is to teach the highly physical stuff to the people who actually have the capacity to pull it off (and who could pull it off well). Forms training can only teach you to perform the form well. There’s no hidden secrets that will make you a master fighter contained in forms. Personally I’ve learned well over 30 (lost count and purposefully let myself forget a few) forms. Guess what- there’s no secrets. You can only get good at fighting by drilling constantly with the moves against another person (both of you have to have the b@lls to get hit too). That’s the only way.
So to me- why waste the opportunity of training somebody with youth and energy to do the things that require youth and energy to pull off because of some misguided belief in secret abilities that are contained in forms? There are no secrets.
[QUOTE=Lucas;956820]a good example is when you watch a shaolin monk do any animal form,[/quote]how do you see the shaolin do a form unless you are a shaolin yourself?
he has that animals spirit.
but thats impossible… your spirit cannot take on the aspects of another spirit.
[QUOTE=bawang;956819]performing forms was a very socially low activity like begging[/QUOTE]so is juggling… if you’d take the stick out of your arse, you might begin to understand what is being conveyed here. you speak as if something that is low cannot possibly be of importance… i could run off into a rambling of how humble and powerful water is because of it being “low”, but a man of your great understanding already knows exactly what i am talking about.
Forms were used and created for many reasons - development skills, catalog of techniques, solo training exercise and so forth, learning to fight from a form was never really one of the reason though, why?
Better, easier and quicker ways to learn how to fight than from forms.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;957078]Forms were used and created for many reasons - development skills, catalog of techniques, solo training exercise and so forth, learning to fight from a form was never really one of the reason though, why?
Better, easier and quicker ways to learn how to fight than from forms.[/QUOTE]
People often overlook that forms training might just be endemic to clasical Chinese culture. Tests for advancement in government and military posts involved rote memorization of complete books, and were graded on the ability to regurgiate the information verbatim without any attempt to understand the material in any sort of context.
I don’t think you understood my point. It is not about learning another form, or skillset. It is about understanding and nailing the details-in this case, I was referring to the transitional movements. Not different movements, but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.
Beginners seem to look at it like,“I’m here-in this stance doing this technique, then I step to here, and do this technique,etc.”
It’s the “Then I step and..” part, where the gaps occur.
The way a seasoned fighter can just slip a punch, where is brushes his head and misses by a C.H.
Or the timing of a counter strike that intercepts your attackers intent, rather than his strike. You counter the “p” not the “unch.”
these have nothing to do with learning an “advanced” form.
You are correct. There are no secrets.
The secret is, (and not to sound mystical or “high falootin”) can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists?
If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.
