[QUOTE=Lucas;956830]how dare you be technical :mad:[/QUOTE]
LOL!!..Ummmmm…let’s call it a minor lapse in consciousness!
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;956825]
If one was only interested in learning to defend their self, their time would be more efficiently spent learning to shoot a gun properly. It is more effective, it is easier to get good and take less training time!
[/QUOTE]
the reason to focus on real fight in kung fu isnt about defending yourself, its about keeping a real chinese tradition and culture because real kung fu was about fighting. its about being true to yourself and not dedicating years of your life on a lie
the problem is most of us were exposed to kung fu from movies. once you find out thats all fake and real kung fu training and fighting is diffrent sometimes its hard to accept and change
if you are summoning the spirits or calling the cloud to rain–
then it is a ritual, or ceremonies
either native american or taoist priest some 2500 years ago
yes, there will be some setups in the site
there will be chanting and some movements
–
the main thing is the sincerity of the summoner
–
it is said that every time you summon or communicate with the spirits, you would lose some your life in this world, your life span would be shortened.
–
so I was told when I was a little kid.
:eek:
[QUOTE=SPJ;956835]if you are summoning the spirits or calling the cloud to rain–
then it is a ritual, or ceremonies
either native american or taoist priest some 2500 years ago
yes, there will be some setups in the site
there will be chanting and some movements
–
the main thing is the sincerity of the summoner
–
it is said that every time you summon or communicate with the spirits, you would lose some your life in this world, your life span would be shortened.
–
so I was told when I was a little kid.
:eek:[/QUOTE]
shamanism is not for everyone.
:eek:
:eek:
is that why i feel so old?
:eek:
performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the “spiritual” part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt “fun” anymore
Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.
[QUOTE=bawang;956834]the reason to focus on real fight in kung fu isnt about defending yourself, its about keeping a real chinese tradition and culture because real kung fu was about fighting. its about being true to yourself and not dedicating years of your life on a lie
the problem is most of us were exposed to kung fu from movies. once you find out thats all fake and real kung fu training and fighting is diffrent sometimes its hard to accept and change[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bawang;956839]performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the “spiritual” part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt “fun” anymore[/QUOTE]
Hi bawang,
Those are your personal opinions, and I respect them, however forms, as a “real” tradition and cultural expression", is not a necessary attitude to have in order to derive a benefit from performing them.
Many Japanese MA jutsu perform as few as two step forms that are strict technical expressions of real life actions.
Because they are an effective training method they are nearly universally practiced by those expecting to get into real fights.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;956841]Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.[/QUOTE]
Very good advice!
To me there are two types of forms, less than real life actions, and true to life actions. Both serve a purpose, but one is more practical in terms of real life self-defense than the other!
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;956841]Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.[/QUOTE]
i dont know any forms
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;956841] If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. [/QUOTE]
in northern kung fu all the movements of the forms are exxagerated and done wrong on purpose
if you perform the forms like you actualy do them in private, the farmers watching you have no idea wtf youre doing
True, the shamanistic element is prevelant in some forms. In some forms, the sun-da, or sun-gung is woven into the form itself, and by performing the form, you invoke your spirit.
It is even said that when you perform your form, you are spiritually connecting yourself to the past masters.
When performing the Kuan-dao, you are Kuan-Gung. Certain moves, tightening the helmet strap, stroking the beard, scoffing at the enemy, riding the horse, sharpening the blade, etc are not just mimicry, but ways to connect directly with the spirit of Kuan-Gung. You should have a feeling of majesty and power. This eventually can be invoked at will in times of combat.
Is there a difference between dim-heurng and chang-sun? For some, yes. For others, no.
-of course, that is if you actually believe in all that stuff…
what do I know? I’m just a gwailo who took some Gung-Fu lessons.
[QUOTE=bawang;956847]i dont know any forms[/QUOTE]
Two movements performed in succession = a form.
i dont think thats the kind of form mightyb was talking about, i think he was talkinga bout the usual long performance taolu
I had a teacher, that said that forms are an encyclopedia to be studied and contemplated. All of it is embedded.
I think of the forms in the sequences of a system as letters composing a language, that makes sense once you are able to start speaking it and will eventually form words, which, fluently and powerfully can heal or harm when properly applied.
I don’t know if that carries enough resonance to make sense over the internet without any BL, but that is how I explain kung fu to people.
[QUOTE=iron_leg_dave;956863]I had a teacher, that said that forms are an encyclopedia to be studied and contemplated. All of it is embedded.
I think of the forms in the sequences of a system as letters composing a language, that makes sense once you are able to start speaking it and will eventually form words, which, fluently and powerfully can heal or harm when properly applied.
I don’t know if that carries enough resonance to make sense over the internet without any BL, but that is how I explain kung fu to people.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense to to me.
good forms worked properly will adjust and correct your structure.
You can’t have power with a weak foundation. Forms help you to develop the right foundation for delivery of the techniques when you step into the next aspect of training.
[QUOTE=MightyB;956782]I still haven’t resolved it for myself.
As a traditionalist I say “who am I to change the system?” since I’m nowhere close to being a sifu.
[/QUOTE]
My impression is that you’ve been in the game long enough and have more real experience then a lot of sifu. They’re your tools, do whatever the hell you want to do with them, right? Chances are you’ll make something unique and custom made.
When I don’t have a training partner, I often shadow-kickbox. On good days, it flows just like a set form. Plus, if I shadow box with a certain intent, then the expression of that intent changes what the shadow boxing looks like, so I agree with the idea of shamanistic aspects being part of it. I find the difference between shadow-kickboxing and forms is that forms are set and progressive, usually with the more challenging concepts and techniques being expressed near the end of the form, whereas shadow-boxing is applying everything you know from the beginning.
The Qin Emperor used a form of rhythm and dance to unite his armies before a battle. They would do a drum dance - each soldier had an hourglass drum and two drumsticks. They would dance, leap, swing the drum around and drum in unison. Having the troops perform it together made for stronger bonds and loyalty, greater coordination, and higher individual performance. It wasn’t a Martial arts form per se, but it worked very well, with the added benefit of striking fear into the enemy with the sound of the drums and possibly the sight of thousands of synchronized soldiers.
Even today, many armies perform group drills to enhance cohesion. Heck, most MA clubs do the same thing, “form” or “no form.” Although the nature of combat has changed, I think that in a world where armies often camped within sight of one another before battle, using drill time to impress and frighten the enemy seems like a pretty good idea. Maybe a quick and easy way is to link a whole bunch of crazy moves together, then get everybody together before the battle and have them all do it at the same time - preferably with lots of shouting and drumming.
Oh, right, a point… um, So when you do solo form, just play with it. Maybe do it really slow, for a “slo-mo-shadow-boxing” effect… or do it really fast for a “no time to think” effect… or just work on your attributes with it.
Forms should have a lot of important notes about transitions in them. Just saying.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;956918]My impression is that you’ve been in the game long enough and have more real experience then a lot of sifu. They’re your tools, do whatever the hell you want to do with them, right? Chances are you’ll make something unique and custom made.[/QUOTE]Excellent advice.
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;956956]Forms should have a lot of important notes about transitions in them. Just saying.[/QUOTE]This too. You should write the notes on your arms, then when you put your arms out in a position from the forms you can read about the transitions.