Red5angel's training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

I hope you are not saying that Wingchun is the .22 to BJJ’s M60?!

In BJJ’s area of expertise, I say it definitely is and I am entitled to my opinion, even if you regard this forum as your personal soapbox and Carl’s free advertising channel (IMO he needs to fire his marketing manager).

Others are free to diasagree with me, though it seems that is not something you are able to deal with.

As you have “not yet learn [sic] to apply what I am learning to the ground”, you are in no position to judge or comment.

22

Originally posted by anerlich
Ken and Carl may have all the necessary tools to deal with a fight that hits the floor, but their #1 advertising foghorn can’t come up with any proof.

Please remember that Jason hasn’t even met Ken. By his own admission, though casting a reflection on Ken, he does not represent him.

For the many of us who do know and care for Ken, it seems fair to say we find the young man’s behavior and his tenor of general disrespect to virtually everyone as an embarrassment to us, and a disservice to Ken.


If an EXPERIENCED student (i.e. not red5angel) from the KC lineage could enlighten me, I’d be grateful. A sincere question, not looking to diss anybody.

Stand up fighting is still and definitely our main course. Groundfighting is at best an h’ors-d’oeuvres, served only when absolutely necessary. The mainstay of our training effort is distinctly geared toward avoiding the ground.

Thankfully, our Wing Chun concepts and principles still apply on the ground, but of course you knew I’d propose that. I do not believe that most of our people get enough practice to be unquestionably competent on the ground, though in certain circumstance some may be. Most practitioners are still working to develop degrees of competence on their feet. It is hard (for me) to disagree that time spent on the floor is well invested. It’s more the dilemma of opportunity costs, and also understanding that some sufficiency is required in the standup skills if it is those same skills, or a subset thereof, we intend to translate to other scenarios.

Ken has demonstrated numerous times how our Wing Chun concepts can be applied from on the ground. I am not aware of anyone from our groups who practices on the ground routinely. I won’t be surprised when someone gravitates (sic) to it eventually, but more as a function of personal predilection and risk assessment , rather than a primary feature of training design. Simply put, time isn’t infinite. We all pays our money and takes our chances.

I have also seen Carl on the ground, but to the best of my knowledge it was more in context of high school wrestling or something akin to it, and not intended as a demonstration of Wing Chun. Maybe others have seen more of his groundwork.

On balance, I think most would confess they still have plenty of stand up work in need of taming. Certainly I do. Maybe once I retire I’ll have more time for extending and dabbling. Though the retirees I know caution me about such optimism, LOL.

[B]

Does Ken have any students presently living in Australia? Preferably with more than 7-8 months’ experience and who listen as well as talk? [/B]

None that I know of. And the prospects look dim, as I found out I am too old to immigrate. :wink:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
23

discussing techniques

R5A: your answer that discussing techs is a ‘waste of time’ is flat out wrong. the ‘i do this’ game (sic) is how things are learned- thats what goes on in class, too. your answers to my question re: rooting were nothing but jargon. could you please substantiate them, maybe on that thread?

anerlich: not to jump on you or anything, but i’ll add to KJ’s comment-R5A certainly does not speak for the KC line, and definitely not Ken, nor is he representative of the character we try to engender. his behavior online is a common jekyll/hyde phenomenon, which he ought to look at. there are several from the KC line that can discuss techniques and the principles behind them intelligently- KJ, John Weiland, Eric Neeck (sp? & hey, why isn’t he here? ;-)), and more. These individuals know each other better than i know them, so perhaps they can direct you or share commentary. as for groundfighting, you’ve an open mind & a willingness to do the work- a thing to be admired, not admonished.

24

FYI- Red5 again

As for good wingchun Joy, Why dont you post your web page for everyone to see your Great Wing Chun? How hard you MUST be working at it and how GOOD it looks with your solid structure and connectedness? What happened to straightening the spine? or getting the elbows in? I’d put my 7-8 months against your 25 years or whatever any day, because rememeber, I have BEEN to your class and knows what goes on there

For the list:
1.A web page is a public thing. Mine has always been at
<www.azwingchun.com>
2. Jason aka red5angel participated in one class of mine where he didnt have a clue about wing chun including whata previous teachers background was. What time I gave to him during sil lim tao involved trying to unsuccessfully unfreeze his stiff hand in trying to do a basic tan sao. He stood in a corner and didnt have a clue on the art. He later kept on asking me for several months for advice by email on
how and where to study wing chun on Minneapolis. finally for the lat 7+ months he is associated with a study group that is associated with one of Kenneth Chung’s students in Cleveland and
has started pontificationg on wing chun on various net places since then.. Jason has
not met Kenneth Chung and numerous students of Chung have expressed their embarrassment at Jason’s posts.
Now that I have contradicted some of red5’s pontifications he has chosen to disparage the messenger rather than taking to heart a considerable accumulation of advice given to him by many competemt folks from quite different lines on the wing chun list and elsewhere..
3. As far as putting up his wing chun against competent experienced wing chun folks- he has his dreams- actually many of them. Reality is a quite different thing. Tough talking and understanding kung fu are quite different things IMO.
4. Ignorant folks often dont understand what is in front of them and can try to reduce things to their own level of incompetence…
specially in understanding a major sytem of kung fu.It is preumptuous for a 7 month student to comment incisively on any
martial art.
5. There are now quite a few nice wing chun web pages for referrals or linkages or articles on wing chun…for beginning wing chun or other curious folks.. They include
david Williams’ Planet Wing Chun, Rene Ritchies wing chun kuen
com, Lucas’ Wing Chun world.
6. On lists like this one which allows anonymity some cheap shots show up.. I write in defense of the art- it should not be judged by its least knowledgeable exponents.

No need to respond…or atleast- I have spoken my piece and prefer to let it go at that. Cheers and bye for now. I know red5 will compulsively post again–judge for yourself and good luck in your own kung fu development and have fun if you can.
Yuanfen/Joy Chaudhuri :Tempe Wing Chun Gung Fu.

25

Whose Memory is Slipping?

Hi Jason,

Originally posted by red5angel
LOL! Your memory really is slipping! I did your class for almost two months, but apprently that keeps slipping ;).

Teachers only remember the really good students, or the really bad.
[B]

If you want to refute me I have no problem with that, just get your facts straight before hand so we dont have to go over this yet again.
[/B]

Why? Obviously, even the most simple concepts alluded to by your peers and seniors are ignored. Do you ignore what Carl tells you too? One would assume so.
[B]

I am not interested in pursuing a personal war with you Joy, at your age its getting ridiculous dont you think, to be acting like this on the internet?[/B]
It’s ridiculous at any age.
[B]

As for good or bad wingchun, like you said your webpage is public, anyone can get your address, stop by and see what it is you have or dont have. [/B]

You claimed in another post that pictures and video are deceptive. To flip flop this way leaves your posts without content or value.

Try to post like the grownups and wrestle with the difficulty of finding the right words to convey Wing Chun ideas.

Regards,

26

R5A,

I am not into bashing people ( well I do WC ! ) but seriously, listen to what yuanfan, John and anerlich are telling you.
As a fellow novice R5A , one of the first things I was asked to do by my teacher was to try to throw out any pre-conceived notions I might have about what a martial is or isn’t. That process continues to the day you die. My teacher stresses the importance of practice - things don’t happen overnight - you don’t just wake up saying Heh I can do a tan sau or whatever you have to work at it! Some of your more aggressive posts mock the work ethic of other WC guys and this is something you are not qualified to do.

Can you imagine how it must feel to be doing WC for 20 years plus and then have a novice tell you that you don’t know ****? I’d be annoyed as I am sure you would be.

I don’t always agree with yuanfan ( Assam is a far superior cup of tea IMHO Darjeeling is for wimps :slight_smile: ) or anerlich because I am not always competent enough to understand the points they make - neither are you. It does not mean you cannot make comments - it does not mean you have to agree with them but you should afford them respect and civility as fellow WC guys and more experienced martial artists.

If you wonder why respect and civility are not returned to you in the same measure look at how you phrase your posts.

As for BJJ, take a look at the following article:-
Development of Physical Attributes at http://www.bjj.org/articles/

That article was written by a BJJ/JKD guy but could quite easily have been written by a WC guy. WC does not have a monopoly on skill and technique - it can be found in other arts as well.

I am afraid that your arrogance on this forum (and R5A you may be the only person not to view it that way ) only shows that you have scratched the surface and no more. To go beyond scratching the surface you have to learn the lesson of SLT ie open your mind to the possibility … the little idea.

I’m sure you’ll respond with a spirited defense but please entertain the possibility that you are wrong - when so many people are getting annoyed at you, perhaps they might have a point?

27

A few of the more asinine r5a posts and responses to them on this thread seem to have gone into the bit bucket, which IMO is a good thing.

I meant no disrespect to Kenneth Chung or his lineage with my questions. r5a implied he knew more about Wing Chun groundfighting than I, though his own posts refute that, and I wished to hear the facts from someone who knew what they were talking about. There is floor fighting and grappling in Wing Chun, I see lots of places in BJJ practice where WC principles and structure fit right in, the practice of one art enhances and enriches the understanding of the other. Sometimes I almost feel that BJJ training is Wing Chun on the ground, just that the emphases are different. Training is exploration, not a set of steps written down on the WC stone tablets from the Shaolin temple.

With r5a as the single but notable exception, I have found the KC lineage internet folks to be highly reasonable and knowledgeable folks.

28

Anerlich,

I didn’t misread your intent, and no worries at all. Just want to ensure possible misperceptions don’t self-perpetuate.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
29

Wing Chun in Ground Fighting

First, I would like to say hello to you all and this is my first time posting.

Wing Chun does not teach specific things in which to do if you happen to get on the ground. Instead of asking, “What do I do when the fight goes to the ground?” Try asking your instructor, “What do I do to avoid having the fight go to the ground?” Wing Chun does teach this. If you are competent in Wing Chun then you should have enough root and have enough sensitivity to deal with your opponent’s energy before it forces you to the ground. But for discussion’s sake, lets say that you do happen to go to the ground. Although Wing Chun does not teach specific things in which to do, it does teach things that can be applied to ground fighting. For example, one of the many important things in Wing Chun is sensitivity. If you are on the ground your opponent is probably going to try to use his hands to control your arms in order to hit you in your face or other vital areas. This is where your sensitivity is very crucial! Don’t let him grab your arms. Maintain being relaxed and use your sensitivity. If you are more relaxed and have more sensitivity than your opponent, then you should be able to control his arms. Then, when you have a free hand, you better strike your opponent in his nose, eyes, or throat. Once you are able to get up off the ground, you better do so. A Wing Chun practitioner is a better fighter standing up.

Remember: When you are working with your Sifu, don’t ask him what to do if so and so happens, ask him what you should do to so that DOSEN’T happen. Then you will be a better Wing Chun practitioner.

Thanks for your time,
Corey

30

Sometimes I almost feel that BJJ training is Wing Chun on the ground, just that the emphases are different.

Excellent point. I’ve always believed this myself. Some of the BJJ guys I’ve rolled with have been more relaxed than many WCK people I’ve touched hands with. I think BJJ and WCK make a sinister combination and a pretty complete fighter. :slight_smile:

31

Re: Wing Chun in Ground Fighting

Hi Corey,

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou

Remember: When you are working with your Sifu, don’t ask him what to do if so and so happens, ask him what you should do to so that DOSEN’T happen. Then you will be a better Wing Chun practitioner.

Good post. This is what Red5Angel’s response should have been. :smiley:

Regards,

32

Re: Wing Chun in Ground Fighting

Atleastimnotyou (lol),

Pretty good first time post. :slight_smile:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
33

commission a study!

and you may find everyone’s first posts aren’t bad! (it’s the follow ups that offend…)

34

Re: commission a study!

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
and you may find everyone’s first posts aren’t bad! (it’s the follow ups that offend…)

Down with Pygmalion-pessimism.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
35

(whining)

But Higgins, I can explaiiiin!

36

Re: Re: commission a study!

Originally posted by kj
[B]

Down with Pygmalion-pessimism.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo [/B]

Hi KJ,

If our little “Galatea” logs on, all transformed, won’t we be pleasantly surprised? :slight_smile:

Regards,

John

37

atleastimnotyou,

Welcome. I agree with most of what you are saying, however I should point out that while Wing Chun relies on sensitivity and has exercises to develop it, it hardly has the franchise on it. Tactile sensitivity is ESSENTIAL to have any success in grappling. BJJ trainees practice blindfolded too, and for the same reasons. If you use strength rather than correct alignment/structure and leverage, and don’t learn to relax and work off what your opp is doing, you will find progress difficult in WC or a grappling art.

BJJ has a centreline principle. It also exhorts the use of all four limbs simultaneously during the fight. Controlling the arms, as you mentioned, is the most effective defense against a guard pass. There are many similarities. I occasionally run a class running students through BJJ techniques taken from movements in the WC forms. WC has grappling and groundfighting in it already. Sometimes coming at it from a different angle increases your understanding.

Avoiding the ground is a sensible tactic for martial artists of any persuasion, but choice may be a luxury. Wing Chun can in theory work on the floor, but if you don’t put that theory into practice by getting down there and training it you WILL get smoked by someone who has, should he take you down (or you fall over).

In my experience, it only takes a comparatively small amount of instruction and a few months of regular training in grappling (or whatever other way you want to do it) to develop better groundfighting skills than 98% of the population.

38

Groundfighting is an aspect wich has to be practiced! The Wing Chun concepts can easily be adopted to situation on the floor. It´s all indeed about relaxation, sensitivity and punching whenever possible (never wrestle a wrestler: don´t grab him when he grabs you).
“Atleastimnotyou” is right when he says winchun has the tools for fighting on the ground. But you have to learn how to use these (practise).
In fact, practicing on the ground is the least interesting fighting distance of all. When you don´t train kicking, punching, elbow and clinching distance, you´re likely to end up (fighting??) on the ground.

T.

ps IMHO WC groundfighting should be very different from BJJ.

39

practicing on the ground is the least interesting fighting distance of all

Opinions vary. I for one disagree, but it’s a matter of opinion.

But if that’s true, then that may explain why some (too many) avoid it. What you find interesting may not be what you need.

40

fwiw

Short notes FWIW. The real bjj folks have a lot to teach about
being relaxed on the ground. Actually good wing chun should teach parallel focus, calmness, tactile controls…not just on the ground but standing up, sitting down or whatever.
Even back in 76 we were doing wing chun drills on the ground- taughta lot about wing chun body shaping on the ground. However good wing chun folks are less likely to go to the ground than some other folks including western boxers and tkd folks IMHO of course. But in case it happens wc folks should be prepared for the ground. I dont know bjj but I have worked out on the ground with folks with ground experience. WC works for me. I havent felt the need for another art but have no criticism for folks who try out different things.