How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?
Be interested to hear different points of view.
Peace 
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1238083]How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?
Be interested to hear different points of view.
Peace ;)[/QUOTE]
Depends who youâre on the ground with. Knowing what to do on the ground varies from wrestling to Bjj. Wrestling doesnât address being on their backs , Bjj lives on its back. I do Bjj and x train with my vt , they flow into each other naturally, but vt is not Bjj and vice versa. My wrestling students like to know guard ideas from Bjj.
Fighting out of a ring/cage involves random chaos with multiple opponents and being kicked into a coma very easily. VT in this must not go down if avoidable environment is very efficient.
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1238083]How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?
Be interested to hear different points of view.
Peace ;)[/QUOTE]
Youâre probably wondering who the heck those people are,
Thatâs Wing Chun Grand Master Samuel Kwok, and the Late BJJ MMA Pioneer and Grand Master, Carlson Gracie.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1238086]Youâre probably wondering who the heck those people are,
Thatâs Wing Chun Grand Master Samuel Kwok, and BJJ Pioneer and Grand Master, Carlson Gracie.[/QUOTE]
I know who they are. Im more interested on your own experience. I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. 
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1238090]I know who they are. Im more interested on your own experience. I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. :p[/QUOTE]
I canât say anything because I have no Wing Chun experience darn it all!!! I need to learn some so I can hang with you guys. You have all the fun on this forum. :):D:)
But I did find that the groundwork and cross training in Judo did help my personal understanding of 7* Mantis. But I canât contribute anymore in this particular forum because I donât know much if anything about WC. 
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1238090]I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. :p[/QUOTE]
LOL True!
BTW thatâs âgrandmasterâ Sam Kwok!
IMHO what little ground work that is inherent in Wing Chun is just enough to keep off an untrained street hoodlum so you can get back to your feet. Anyone that thinks it can function on par with wrestling or BJJ or some other dedicated ground-fighting method is deluding themselves. So if someone is worried about the potential of facing an opponent/attacker with a bit of âknow-howâ on the ground, they should do a bit of cross-training in a ground-fighting method. Even if its just enough to learn how to defend well against a takedown.
Come on guys, you donât need to train any ground fighting when youâve got Wing Tsun Takedown Defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U
[QUOTE=MightyB;1238091]I canât say anything because I have no Wing Chun experience darn it all!!! I need to learn some so I can hang with you guys. You have all the fun on this forum. :):D:)
But I did find that the groundwork and cross training in Judo did help my personal understanding of 7* Mantis. But I canât contribute anymore in this particular forum because I donât know much if anything about WC. :([/QUOTE]
Well tell me why judo helped you Chut Xing Tong Long? Why did u choose to cross train and does your Tang Lang work on the floor alone?
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1238084]Depends who youâre on the ground with. Knowing what to do on the ground varies from wrestling to Bjj. Wrestling doesnât address being on their backs , Bjj lives on its back. I do Bjj and x train with my vt , they flow into each other naturally, but vt is not Bjj and vice versa. My wrestling students like to know guard ideas from Bjj.
Fighting out of a ring/cage involves random chaos with multiple opponents and being kicked into a coma very easily. VT in this must not go down if avoidable environment is very efficient.[/QUOTE]
AgreeâŚ
Its worst place to be on the ground and everything needs to be about keeping up and making sure your stand up is enough to keep you alive. Since ground is such a bad place to go, then you gotta know how to fight on ground. No better way of fighting on your back the bjj.
[QUOTE=chaotic2k;1238102]Well tell me why judo helped you Chut Xing Tong Long? Why did u choose to cross train and does your Tang Lang work on the floor alone?[/QUOTE]
I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.
The result:
Standing⌠my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.
There wasnât a comparison on the ground - 7* didnât have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff⌠groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes⌠but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations⌠or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1238105]I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.
The result:
Standing⌠my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.
There wasnât a comparison on the ground - 7* didnât have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff⌠groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes⌠but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations⌠or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.[/QUOTE]
Cool. Interesting.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1238096]Come on guys, you donât need to train any ground fighting when youâve got Wing Tsun Takedown Defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U[/QUOTE]
Hmmmmm ; )
[QUOTE=MightyB;1238105]I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.
The result:
Standing⌠my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.
There wasnât a comparison on the ground - 7* didnât have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff⌠groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes⌠but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations⌠or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.[/QUOTE]
Simple ideas from where not to place arms how to mount or guard go a long way to avoid things. Also mma variations rather than sport ground vary too.
I have used up kicks from experience sparring, in bar fights. But instead of a comfort zone of a " duel " you get your arse up ASAP.
I now have visions of doing a choreographed fight for an upcoming 24 hour film fest where one guy is either going to go for a mount or knee on belly on a downed fighter, and the down fighter turtles up a little to protect his head and reaches in and grabs the other guyâs nards with a death grip from haides and the up guy screaming like a woman trying desperately to get up and away from the guyâs death grip.
I agree 100% Kev.
Simple ideas from BJJ go a long way against your average Joe with no experience.
Personally, I think that anyone interested self-defence should learn a few basic things like 1) how to fall correctly 2) how best to position oneself on the ground against a standing attacker 3) how to get up safely 4) how to escape the mount. This stuff is easy to learn, and fun (IMO).
You can certainly add to this list, like how to escape side mount or pass guard, and a few simple takedowns and submissions, but I think for most people the above is enough.
I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmellâs Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.
Better to study something like this than to try to make up some âwing chunâ ground fighting.
Kevinâs response to the clip featuring Michael Casey demonstrating âWingTsun defense against takedownsâŚâ
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1238114]Hmmmmm ; )[/QUOTE]
Kevin, for once you were actually too kind. And Iâm saying that as a guy that spent a long time in the WT organization. Iâve met Michael Casey. He is a gifted athlete and very tough (he was Eminâs training partner for quite a while and Emin can be rough on his partners).
Nevertheless, those âtakedown defensesâ are actually painful to watch and even more embarrassing than those pink pajamas.
My opinion? If you wanât to be good on the ground, X-train with people who really know what they are doing. Absolutely. I admit that I donât do that these days, but only because Iâm getting older and have been racking up too many injuries. But thatâs my problem. There are guys out there older than me that can still take the punishment. God bless 'em.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1238125]I agree 100% Kev.
Simple ideas from BJJ go a long way against your average Joe with no experience.
Personally, I think that anyone interested self-defence should learn a few basic things like 1) how to fall correctly 2) how best to position oneself on the ground against a standing attacker 3) how to get up safely 4) how to escape the mount. This stuff is easy to learn, and fun (IMO).
You can certainly add to this list, like how to escape side mount or pass guard, and a few simple takedowns and submissions, but I think for most people the above is enough.
I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmellâs Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.
Better to study something like this than to try to make up some âwing chunâ ground fighting.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, good list. In judo training we did falling in all manner of ways. To make it " fun" we would run, jump ,roll, over several students. Never used it in a fight yet
; ) but I have seen systema guys use the run drop& roll as an entry from long distances to an armed perp. Counterintuitive IMO : ) I would drop and roll away Fast ! Hah
As Sean66 stated:
[I]"I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmellâs Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.
Better to study something like this than to try to make up some âwing chunâ ground fighting."[/I]
So why do so many WC groups try to make up their own clumsy groundwork? Ego and money, Iâd say.